|
wufwugy
|
07-16-2006, 08:40 PM
Post subject: standard preflop play
|
#1 (permalink)
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
i finished Theory of Poker recently, and if Sklansky didn't directly express it he definately implied that precise play can be understood based on pot odds and winning frequency of particular hands. obviously, the other players' tendencies add other odds, but what this post is concerned with is only the odds based on the size of the pot, predicted size of the pot at showdown, and hand strength.
so, what i'd like to know is if anybody knows of a list or would like to provide opinion of what is understood to be precise preflop play under non-read circumstances. like what do you do with 22 in the BB and UTG raised and only one cold caller? or 79s in Button and UTG, MP, and CO limp? or 93o in BB when UTG raises and MP, CO, Button, and SB all coldcall?
even then, it may be that precise play can't be known because some odds are implied, and are never predicted properly, but im betting it can be considered pretty closely.
so does anybody have anything for me?
btw, if the question is too broad and unanswerable without tremendous effort, tell me and i'll post a plethora of questions along the lines of what hands and how should they be played when in MP and UTG limps? or when he raises? or when in CO and one limper? or one raiser? or UTG raises and MP coldcalls? or both limp? etc
|
|
|
Play for FREE and practice your game at...
Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!
|
|
Ltrain
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
|
|
For purely academic study, I would default to the SSHE Tables. In regular play, learing through hand examples is probably best.
|
|
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ltrain
For purely academic study, I would default to the SSHE Tables. In regular play, learing through hand examples is probably best.
|
when i first began playing i spent tons of time on the tables in Miller's books. i was also playing fullring. problem is that 6max is different than fullring and thus fullring tables cannot be applied directly, and the tables are far from exhaustive. for example: the consensus seems to be that KJo is a raising hand UTG in 6max cuz you've got good enough equity, but what if you're in the SB and there're 4 limpers ahead of you. is it still a raising hand or have you lost too much equity and are ensured terrible position? or are you getting much better odds so you still wanna raise? i have no clue. i can only guess, yet when the answers are very statistical and mathematical guessing is a problem.
|
|
|
|
Ltrain
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ltrain
For purely academic study, I would default to the SSHE Tables. In regular play, learing through hand examples is probably best.
|
when i first began playing i spent tons of time on the tables in Miller's books. i was also playing fullring. problem is that 6max is different than fullring and thus fullring tables cannot be applied directly, and the tables are far from exhaustive. for example: the consensus seems to be that KJo is a raising hand UTG in 6max cuz you've got good enough equity, but what if you're in the SB and there're 4 limpers ahead of you. is it still a raising hand or have you lost too much equity and are ensured terrible position? or are you getting much better odds so you still wanna raise? i have no clue. i can only guess, yet when the answers are very statistical and mathematical guessing is a problem. |
I would still start from the SSHE tables by eliminating the early positions if you have nothing else to go off of. After that, you need work on your blind defense and stealing. Start with Hyper's sticky above.
|
|
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ltrain
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by wufwugy
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Ltrain
For purely academic study, I would default to the SSHE Tables. In regular play, learing through hand examples is probably best.
|
when i first began playing i spent tons of time on the tables in Miller's books. i was also playing fullring. problem is that 6max is different than fullring and thus fullring tables cannot be applied directly, and the tables are far from exhaustive. for example: the consensus seems to be that KJo is a raising hand UTG in 6max cuz you've got good enough equity, but what if you're in the SB and there're 4 limpers ahead of you. is it still a raising hand or have you lost too much equity and are ensured terrible position? or are you getting much better odds so you still wanna raise? i have no clue. i can only guess, yet when the answers are very statistical and mathematical guessing is a problem. |
I would still start from the SSHE tables by eliminating the early positions if you have nothing else to go off of. After that, you need work on your blind defense and stealing. Start with Hyper's sticky above. |
Hyper's sticky was the first thing i read when i came to this forum, and because i liked it it was one of the main reasons i stuck around. yet it fails to address specifics. which is what im looking for. basically reiterates stuff from GSHE and SSHE, with a few variations for 6max. also, some of it might actually be wrong. he says to complete anything suited or connectecd in the SB. yet i recall discussions in this forum that contradict that.
and still the SSHE tables are not competely applicable if it's true that different types of hands change value not based on position shorthanded. like how it's said that offsuit high cards go up, while low card suited connectors go down. this is a distinction that doesn't seem to be concerned with position, but with game type.
the type of thing im looking for (Miller's books and Hyper's guide do not address) are a list of every hand and when and how it's played based on equity and pot odds exclusively.
take QT for example, this is close to how i play it currently (unless reads suggest otherwise): UTG fold, MP fold or limp if UTG limped and fold if raised, CO open raise or limp if limpers before and fold if raised, Button open raise or limp if limpers before and coldcall if UTG raised and 2 coldcalled, SB open raise or limp if limpers before and coldcall if 3 before, BB check or call if 2 before and coldcall reraise 3 callers before.
part of that is from what i've been told, and part is me just trying to figure it out. im sure some is wrong according to equity and odds though. im also sure that players much better than i have already gone through each hand and evaluated proper play to a much better degree than i can. that's the type of thing im looking for
also, im not so much concerned with blind play right now. 1/2 Pacific doesn't seem to have many stealers or defenders, and im working on other aspects of my game before i focus on blind stealing/defense.
|
|
|
|
Ltrain
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
|
|
I don't know if what you are looking for can be found.
I have some charts linked to the the sticky above after Hyper's guide, but if you are looking for the odds of winning by limping a Q,10o after a limper, calculating this would be like predicting the weather. You have a little information and are trying to calculate a large amount of variables afterward, and at best you will have a range, which will be so wide I don't think you can just make your decision based upon odds. Do you have pokerstove? You could do the odds calculations yourself with this program. I think the link is www.pokerstove.com. However, as I said, your ranges will be wide because we would have to know the tendencies of your limper, players behind you if any, and the blinds.
|
|
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
thanks, i'll check out pokerstove.
|
|
|
|
Xanadu
|
|
Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
|
|
I know of 2 places you can get a pretty thorough breakdown of default 6-max play preflop, including how # of limpers and raises in front of you change how you play hands.
First is King Yao's book, and I think you can find his hand charts somewhere on the 2+2 forum.
Second is at www.beat6max.com
Hate to send you to other sites, but I haven't seen this kind of detail here.
Just going off SSH charts isn't going to help a whole lot because they are suited to a loose full ring game. In a loose full ring game, it is rarely folded around to MP2 or later, so the raising ranges are off. In 6-max you open-raise most of the time because raising gives you a lot of equity from buying position and charging the blinds. Since the blinds are a greater share of eventual pots, a looser range is theoretically correct.
Following charts will not give you optimal play, as that must cahnge according to your opponents. But it will give you a solid foundation to start with.
|
|
|
|
wufwugy
|
|
4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
|
thanks a lot, Xan. looks pretty good.
assuming King Yao's book is in print, i wasn't aware that any 6max limit books were published.
|
|
|
|
Xanadu
|
|
Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
|
|
King Yao's book is called weighing the odds in hold'em poker and is in print. It isn't about 6-max, but I have heard it has a chapter or 2 devoted to it. I'm not positive 6-max charts are in the book (it's in my amazon cart, but haven't chosen other books to get the free shipping yet). I'm sure someone else on here can give a better answer?
|
|
|
|
Ltrain
|
|
Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
|
|
I read King Yao's book, but don't remember a pre-flop table or if there was one, that it was any different than others you probably already have. The major benefit of King Yao's book is strategies for how to vary your play based upon your opponents probable holdings and betting tendencies.
|
|
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
|
|
Xanadu
|
|
Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
|
|
I have seen a detailed King Yao chart on the 2+2 forum, and I'm pretty sure I got to it from a link in someone's post here somewhere, but I can't remember where it was. There is also another chart on 2+2 that isn't King Yao's and someone here posted a link to it around 6 months ago. I think it was something like 'a chart so you know what 2+2ers are playing'. It's not the best chart, but it is fairly solid.
|
|
|
English
Deutsch
Español
Français
Italiano
Nederlands
Pусский
Svenska
05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
Linear Mode
