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spot the leak...

  
 
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Chopper
Old 02-12-2009, 08:01 PM     Post subject: spot the leak... #1 (permalink)  
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players at my level are very prone to this "leak." can you spot it?

we dont need to see the results, which i actually dont have, to see exactly what villain is doing here. and, its a big leak down here, imo...

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with 4, A
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB checks

Flop: (4.4 SB) 6, 4, A (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero raises, 2 folds, MP 3-bets, Hero caps, MP calls

Turn: (6.2 BB) Q (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets, MP calls

River: (8.2 BB) K (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets, 1 fold

Total pot: $4.10 (8.2 BB) | Rake: $0.15


correct me if i am wrong here.

here's a hint. imo, i am doing the same thing, but no leak...

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with 5, A
1 fold, MP calls, Hero calls, SB raises, 1 fold, MP calls, Hero calls

Flop: (7 SB) 7, 3, 9 (3 players)
SB checks, MP checks, Hero bets, 2 folds

Total pot: $1.75 (3.5 BB) | Rake: $0.05
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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DrivingDog
Old 02-12-2009, 09:09 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Ok it took me about 1.3 secs to spot this and i'll be very embarrassed if i'm wrong.

1) Ramming and jamming a FD HU when villian obv. has a better hand

2) there's no leak.

moral of the story: a draw is a draw is a draw. don't go nuts unless you think someone (i.e., everyone) will fold.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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KoRnholio
Old 02-13-2009, 06:18 AM #3 (permalink)  
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 1) Ramming and jamming a non-nut flush draw on that board. The opponent (you/hero in this case) could easily have Adx/Adxd there and now you are pumping on the come drawing just about dead. (If villain had the nut flush draw, he'd call the river with top pair).

2) SB raised preflop, then didn't cbet into just two opponents. He even check-folded. Anything he raises preflop there should a) cbet there and b) not fold the flop against a button bet
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-13-2009, 08:21 AM #4 (permalink)  
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 TBH I don't know why I'm responding here because I don't play fixed limit, although I plan on learning it eventually. I play NL so obviously I'm probably wrong here, so please, don't take this response seriously anyone but...

Is Hero leaking here? Should he raise the weak suited ace rather than jsut call? After all, he does have position, and a raise would give him initiative. Plus with MP open limping he can't really be all that strong. OH, could that be the leak? MP open limping?

Again I don't even know the basic starting hands that one should play in fixed limit, I'm just taking a stab at the question. I suppose the jamming the draw thing could be a leak to. Looks like I'll have to do some reading on limit.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

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asdpikas
Old 02-13-2009, 11:08 AM #5 (permalink)  
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it depends on his hand

if he has something like 7d5d or 8d7d, i dont see a leak

if he has a different diamond draw (not combo), his leak is 3betting the flop oop (semibluffing with no folding equitiy)

I dont like the hero's overlimps, I like a raise on the button much better on both hands.
This IS 6max, ISOLATION, POSITION, INITIATIVE (+dead money from the blinds). IMHO
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Chopper
Old 02-13-2009, 09:55 PM #6 (permalink)  
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1) the leak is jamming the flop AFTER the others have folded. if WE were villain, we no longer have the odds to pump the pot. (yes, if its an OE/FD combo, but i assume its only a FD because i see this too often).

2) there wasnt intended to be a leak here. just when to bet a FD. i have an overcard the NFD and good chances they both fold. if they raise, i call and play for pot odds from here on out.......i dont do what the other guy did and jam some more.

as for overlimping, its straight out of a couple books i've read. i overlimp down here a lot. and, rather wide. AXs, sc's to about 67s, small pp's, sometimes two broadways if i'm late and its one limper. i iso the stronger stuff like ATs+, 88+.

these guys take things so far and fold off rivers, and they also pay off so much so lightly that the overlimping has been fairly profitable for me. its just hard to iso when they cold call so easily. its just better, imo, to limp behind and take a flop....since we have no FE on flops most times anyway.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Micro2Macro
Old 02-13-2009, 10:01 PM #7 (permalink)  
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 Chopper would you be able to recommend a book for someone looking to learn fixed limit? I can read up on which hands to play from different positions and basic stuff like that online really, so something with a little bit of in-depth analysis is what I'm looking for - but isn't too advanced.
"Once we reach a certain level of mastery, we see there are higher levels and challenges. If we are disciplined and patient, we proceed. At each higher level, new pleasures and insights await us--ones not even suspected when we started out. We can take this as far as we want--in any human activity there is always a higher level to which we can aspire."

Check out my blog here!

"You are a degenerate Gaam-balur"

http://www.philgalfond.com/lets-make-some-changes/
 
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Chopper
Old 02-13-2009, 10:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Small-Stakes Hold'Em and Hold'Em for Advanced Players are EXACTLY where i would start.

David Sklansky and Mason Malmuth wrote both, i believe. and, Ed Miller helped write the first with them.

they are basically the equivalent to the Old Testament and the New Testament of limit hold'em.

after that, there are a couple of other good ones, but i would read those both about a dozen times before i thought of buying anything else.

and, both are available through pokerstars and/or many other poker sites. if you have to buy them, by all means, do so. but, i would try and get them with player points first.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Chopper
Old 02-13-2009, 11:01 PM #9 (permalink)  
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it would also help to read the sticky here for the digest....also very good stuff.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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socal1111
Old 02-16-2009, 12:33 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
I dont like the hero's overlimps, I like a raise on the button much better on both hands.
This IS 6max, ISOLATION, POSITION, INITIATIVE (+dead money from the blinds). IMHO
:

I HATE over-limping OTB 6max!
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Chopper
Old 02-16-2009, 04:59 PM #11 (permalink)  
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shocker....lol.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 02-16-2009, 05:30 PM #12 (permalink)  
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btw, imo, there's only ONE 6max book out there. The Stox bible. They dont recommend overlimping those hands on the button
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Trons
Old 02-16-2009, 09:00 PM #13 (permalink)  
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 Well, I'll be honest, the leak I saw in Hand #1 is a little different then what was posted...

If I'm hero and I get 3 bet there, I call the 3bet (on the flop) expecting him to take aggression again on the turn where we can get our extra bet in on the larger street. This is a little touchy because of he has the set instead of the FD, then we end up paying for an extra bet, but we'll prob pay that when he c/r's the turn (which is what I'd do with a set and a brick on the turn).

Hand number 2 I like and think is pretty standard.
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Chopper
Old 02-16-2009, 11:00 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
btw, imo, there's only ONE 6max book out there. The Stox bible. They dont recommend overlimping those hands on the button
my only thing about Stox vs HEFAP/Tannenbaum is the stakes i play. i know its a good thing to have 3 players cold call a raise from the ep player, but it makes it hard to play KJs (something still way ahead of their ranges) on the flop and beyond when its 8+sb's. and, its a bit rough to steal blinds with QTs in the CO when the btn and blinds have a couple real loosies in there. sure, you are ahead of their ranges, too, but you are really putting yourself in a tougher spot post flop. i may not articulate this well, or i may just be a wuss, but it is more natural, and therefore comfortable, for me to keep the pot smaller and hit them later when i know i am likely ahead. however, this may be a bit of my issue with the transfer between 25/50 and 50/1 right now. so, i'll be giving this some thought.

at 25/50, i tend to overlimp sc's and suited aces, take flops, and turn on the gas from there. and, it makes about 4 bb/100. the same gameplan falls completely apart one level higher when these cold callers get 3bet to death.....but, still by mediocre cards. i dont get this chance at 50/1 because raising pre is much more common...as it should be.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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socal1111
Old 02-17-2009, 07:33 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
btw, imo, there's only ONE 6max book out there. The Stox bible. They dont recommend overlimping those hands on the button
my only thing about Stox vs HEFAP/Tannenbaum is the stakes i play. i know its a good thing to have 3 players cold call a raise from the ep player, but it makes it hard to play KJs (something still way ahead of their ranges) on the flop and beyond when its 8+sb's. and, its a bit rough to steal blinds with QTs in the CO when the btn and blinds have a couple real loosies in there. sure, you are ahead of their ranges, too, but you are really putting yourself in a tougher spot post flop. i may not articulate this well, or i may just be a wuss, but it is more natural, and therefore comfortable, for me to keep the pot smaller and hit them later when i know i am likely ahead. however, this may be a bit of my issue with the transfer between 25/50 and 50/1 right now. so, i'll be giving this some thought.

at 25/50, i tend to overlimp sc's and suited aces, take flops, and turn on the gas from there. and, it makes about 4 bb/100. the same gameplan falls completely apart one level higher when these cold callers get 3bet to death.....but, still by mediocre cards. i dont get this chance at 50/1 because raising pre is much more common...as it should be.
Cmon, Chopp... this type of thinking is fear-based, and results oriented thinking... and YOU KNOW IT!

"keeping the pot smaller, and waiting till later..." is an immature poker mindset, which YOU DON'T HAVE!

Remember when we began, and we didn't like to raise AK because, "it's a drawing hand... and AK never wins!" We don't think like that anymore! Cmon, buddy... KJs, multiway is a beautiful hand, and will win more than it's fair share. Pump it, make the J7o limpers pay, and win those BIG pots that we're playing for in LHE. Chips! Chips! Chips! Not pots.
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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Chopper
Old 02-17-2009, 02:56 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
btw, imo, there's only ONE 6max book out there. The Stox bible. They dont recommend overlimping those hands on the button
my only thing about Stox vs HEFAP/Tannenbaum is the stakes i play. i know its a good thing to have 3 players cold call a raise from the ep player, but it makes it hard to play KJs (something still way ahead of their ranges) on the flop and beyond when its 8+sb's. and, its a bit rough to steal blinds with QTs in the CO when the btn and blinds have a couple real loosies in there. sure, you are ahead of their ranges, too, but you are really putting yourself in a tougher spot post flop. i may not articulate this well, or i may just be a wuss, but it is more natural, and therefore comfortable, for me to keep the pot smaller and hit them later when i know i am likely ahead. however, this may be a bit of my issue with the transfer between 25/50 and 50/1 right now. so, i'll be giving this some thought.

at 25/50, i tend to overlimp sc's and suited aces, take flops, and turn on the gas from there. and, it makes about 4 bb/100. the same gameplan falls completely apart one level higher when these cold callers get 3bet to death.....but, still by mediocre cards. i dont get this chance at 50/1 because raising pre is much more common...as it should be.
Cmon, Chopp... this type of thinking is fear-based, and results oriented thinking... and YOU KNOW IT!

"keeping the pot smaller, and waiting till later..." is an immature poker mindset, which YOU DON'T HAVE!

Remember when we began, and we didn't like to raise AK because, "it's a drawing hand... and AK never wins!" We don't think like that anymore! Cmon, buddy... KJs, multiway is a beautiful hand, and will win more than it's fair share. Pump it, make the J7o limpers pay, and win those BIG pots that we're playing for in LHE. Chips! Chips! Chips! Not pots.
i appreciate you setting me straight, but i do see-saw back and forth on this.....at low stakes.

i dont play KJo in 4way pots when its limped, and i am not raising there KJs is a tougher decision for me and i should likely raise it more often). actually, i dont overlimp it (KJo) either. but, suited aces become problematic, imo, with 3-4 players in there. A5s is dominated by A8, etc, which these guys dont often raise. now, i could have A3 under me, but A5s is rather weak to be raising stations with, imo. sc's, too. in 6max, we are looking for TP a lot more often than flush draws. sure, its nice to pick up a flush draw, but TP is where it's at....and A5s isnt super great to isolate with when we KNOW they call any A and drag them to showdowns HU.

if i am first in, i raise those...no questions asked. but, with a limper, and especially two, i tend to limp those behind and take a "cheap flop."

i still dont think its that wrong. but, i am open to you convincing me because i have a hunch you are right.....i just dont see it at the moment.

Ed Miller does some weird, sub optimum, things at these tables in the name of not putting money in a pot until you have the edge. and, this is largely where i am coming from.

i guess i need help in further distinguishing the situations.....so, there is your opportunity to convince.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 02-17-2009, 05:16 PM #17 (permalink)  
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sure, u may have domination concerns...
in the long run, position and initiative will make up for any pot u lose if dominated.
Plus, if u limp them and the ace flops, now what? u could still be dominated, at least if u raised PF u would have pos + init which will allow u to take free cards or free SDs when unsure.

From today:

please note how i'd be in a more difficult position playing this pot if i hadnt raised PF, with the bet/call on the flop it would get tricky to play. I am planning to take a free SD if i get calls on turn unless I improve, but aggression takes down the pot.

3/6 Limit Holdem
9 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($200.00)
UTG+1 ($32.00)
MP1 ($218.00)
MP2 ($58.50)
MP3 ($55.00)
CO ($60.00)
Hero (BTN) ($160.00)
SB ($167.50)
BB ($35.00)
[CO posted 3]

Pre-flop: (2.5 SB, 9 players) Hero is BTN
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO checks, Hero raises, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, CO folds

Flop: (12.0 SB, 5 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 bets, 1 fold, MP3 calls, Hero raises, SB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls

Turn: (9.0 BB, 3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds

Final Pot: 9.0 BB

Hero wins 9.7 BB ( won +6.7 BB )
MP1 lost 1.0 BB
MP3 lost 2.0 BB
CO lost 0.5 BB
SB lost 1.0 BB
UTG+1 lost 2.0 BB
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Chopper
Old 02-17-2009, 05:47 PM #18 (permalink)  
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i understand, and i see this a little (and i could be suffering from "results-itis"), but as low as i play, i also see way more call downs.

are these guys folding A9 here? mine arent. i guess they dont fold K9, either.

nevermind, i am starting to come around. i just need to put it into practice more often.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Chopper
Old 02-17-2009, 05:48 PM #19 (permalink)  
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funny how i posted for another players leak and likely found one of MINE!!!

i dont know why, but i find that hysterical.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 02-17-2009, 06:23 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
are these guys folding A9 here? mine arent. i guess they dont fold K9, either.
no no, this table was playing like the micros. You can see this is a 6way pot, donker was likely on gutshot (QJ, QT, JT). Players were mostly LPPs. I had them all color coded as fish. Stats were mostly around 25/8/0.7 and most pots went to SD.

But as i said, it doesnt matter if one of them has A9 cause he wont punish me, he will just call call call, so i can take the FSD if i think i want to. In tougher games, you may get punished a bit more if dominated, but then again ppl wont openlimp those hands.
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Lance
Old 02-17-2009, 06:54 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
1) the leak is jamming the flop AFTER the others have folded. if WE were villain, we no longer have the odds to pump the pot. (yes, if its an OE/FD combo, but i assume its only a FD because i see this too often).
Make me right
1. If we were villain on the FD, its right to pump the pot when UTG or BB has called the flop. Should we cap the flop only coz of implied odds ? Our hand equity is only around 28-32% against 3 oppoents. Why we are doing that ?

2. Now assume, you are in 4-ways pot (in this spot), you are on the FD and you capped the flop, all villains called, turn card is blank (no board pair), should you raise (alternatively cap) if any1 shows aggression before you ? (lets say, BB raise, UTG calls, MP calls, hero ?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
Plus, if u limp them and the ace flops, now what? u could still be dominated, at least if u raised PF u would have pos + init which will allow u to take free cards or free SDs when unsure.
Really educational spot for me
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DrivingDog
Old 02-17-2009, 08:21 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Limpers are made for raisin'.

Keep an eye out for the ones with stats like 20/3/1.0 though. They are only playing good hands and only raising AA/KK/AK.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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