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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 06:06 PM     Post subject: Sometimes you can play it right... #1 (permalink)  
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Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with K, J.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Fnord raises, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button (LittleLaggy) calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Flop: (9 SB) 6, K, A (4 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, MP3 folds, LittleLaggy calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4 (3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, LittleLaggy raises, SB folds, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. LittleLaggy wins 9 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with A, Q.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, Fnord raises, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO (LittleLaggy) calls, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 2, T, A (3 players)
Fnord bets, MP2 calls, LittleLaggy calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6 (3 players)
Fnord bets, MP2 folds, LittleLaggy raises, Fnord 3-bets, LittleLaggy caps, Fnord calls.

River: (13.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
Fnord bets, LittleLaggy raises, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 17.25 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord shows Ad Qc (one pair, aces).
LittleLaggy shows 7c 7s (three of a kind, sevens).
Outcome: LittleLaggy wins 17.25 BB.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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mike4066
Old 09-02-2004, 06:46 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Lemme Run though these two hands.

There are a few things I don't understand here.

Hand 1 KJo from mid position?
Hand 2 Bidding war on the turn?

First example..
Could you explain the reasons for the raise with KJo? Just seems like a losing play to me. I'm not a limit player and might be missing something, I'd rather just muck KJ from there.

I understand the flop bet, rep the ace based off of your preflop raise.

Turn bet. You've been given no reason to believe the guys holding top pair go ahead and bet the turn. Re-raised on the turn, theres your information. Re-raised on the expensive street speaks slow play or 2 pair or better. Easy lay down with second pair.

Second example.
Early position raise with AQo to help narrow it down. Np understand that one.

Flop, Top pair Good kicker, no reason to believe AK is out there.

Turn, Bet out no problem, re-raised? How could the 6 help? 2 pair or hit a set? I would have had to drop Top pair on this hand.

Could you Explain your reasons for the re-raises?

River, I would have checked/called if I was still in the hand. (sucked out, that stinks)

Hope you don't mind explaining these.
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 06:46 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1

That raise is pretty loose by my standards.

Hand 2

OUCH!!!
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 07:03 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mike4066
Lemme Run though these two hands.
First example..
Could you explain the reasons for the raise with KJo? Just seems like a losing play to me. I'm not a limit player and might be missing something, I'd rather just muck KJ from there.
3 off the button, I'm only a little out of line. Lots of players calling with crap then folding the turn/river. Raising is a better play here than limping. Post-flop it plays itself.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike4066
Could you Explain your reasons for the re-raises?
He stole the last hand on the Turn, so I figured he was full of $*&%. I was so certain on my read I 3-bet the turn, called the cap and bet the river. He rivered his 2 outer though. I played it right and it went so wrong...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 07:07 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty
Hand 1

That raise is pretty loose by my standards.
Just keep limping with KQo in position and then paying off when the Big Blind hits two pair....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 07:10 PM #6 (permalink)  
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yeah hand two if he's a maniac, Fnord played it spot on.

He could have slowed down a little for dmg limitation, but when you get a good hand against this type of player you have to beat them over the head with it heads up.
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 07:12 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Just keep limping with KQo in position and then paying off when the Big Blind hits two pair....
Will do, you keep raising KJos from MP2 and we can compare notes in a few weeks

Edit: I'll just add KJos is a fold UTG at a 1$/2$ 6max table, unless you are trying to mix up your play.
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 07:58 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Toasty, on a related note, what's the weakest hand you've 3-bet pre-flop at a full table outside of a blind defense? AQ? TT?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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mike4066
Old 09-02-2004, 08:08 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
3 off the button, I'm only a little out of line. Lots of players calling with crap then folding the turn/river. Raising is a better play here than limping. Post-flop it plays itself.
With the table condtions you stated I can I understand the reasoning for playing the hand, thanks.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
He stole the last hand on the Turn, so I figured he was full of $*&%. I was so certain on my read I 3-bet the turn, called the cap and bet the river. He rivered his 2 outer though. I played it right and it went so wrong...
I didn't realize these hands were back to back. You had one hell of a read on him for the second hand. Too bad it went so wrong. (yes i know its the title of the post)
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 08:51 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Toasty, on a related note, what's the weakest hand you've 3-bet pre-flop at a full table outside of a blind defense? AQ? TT?
Hard to say, it's table dependant, I wouldn't be surprised if I have tried to isolate a maniac with as little as A6os or 44...
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 09:00 PM #11 (permalink)  
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On a related note, why have you began to question how I play after posting your own plays?

If you don't like people posting alternative plays to what you post, you shouldn't really post
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 09:03 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty
On a related note, why have you began to question how I play after posting your own plays?

If you don't like people posting alternative plays to what you post, you shouldn't really post
Just trying to understand your game... I think I got you pegged...

Anyway, if I thought any street was questionable I would have posted this in the Hand History forum...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 09:13 PM #13 (permalink)  
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So what's the tale then ?

why not to raise KJos from middle positon ??
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 09:25 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty
So what's the tale then ?
Read the title

Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty
why not to raise KJos from middle positon ??
Good players fold better hands to my raise, bad players cold call with worse. Abdul open-raises here too and the 2+2ers think he's too tight for 2/4. http://www.posev.com/poker/holdem/st...lop-abdul.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 09:35 PM #15 (permalink)  
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It's a diff of opinion, I see this as folding hands you beat and being called by hands you dont, which is why I follow the Jim Bryer mentality with KQ os that it's not a hand you can take to SD unless you hit.

Fnord I know you are a good Limit Player I've never questioned that, but there is more than one way to play. I feel you fail to realise that, why isn't Sklansky plaiying in the biggest limit games going ? Simple, he's not good enough, my plays are from people who play big limit poker. I know this is small stakes but in tight small stakes internet games you are playing big stakes casino poker.

Check out "Middle Limit Holdem", it will change your game . . .

and BTW JB and BC have regular disagreements with DS and MM which is probably why we do... diff poker schools
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 09:49 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty
It's a diff of opinion, I see this as folding hands you beat and being called by hands you dont, which is why I follow the Jim Bryer mentality with KQ os that it's not a hand you can take to SD unless you hit.
Not at the 2/4 tables I play at. Until shown otherwise I expect an unknown with all kinds of crap to call (although they seem to often fold the turn/river.) Quite often I get the BB heads up with 2 random cards (because they just love to defend, poorly, with anything), big time +EV.

For the most part, I play solid hands and bet anything until shown resistance. I might have the best hand, I might hit the best hand, I might fold out the other guy. TAg style. Too often no one has much of anything to regularly limp and try to catch the best hand (outside of multi-pots with implied odds hands.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 09:58 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Well maybe we play diff times then but we seem to be playing a diff game.

The way I play works and it works well.

Code:
Transaction Time  TransType Amount  Trans# Cr/Dr  Status  
29-AUG-04 13:17 Cashout $165.00 13527526 Db SUCCESS 
26-AUG-04 19:57 Cashout $650.00 13391428 Db SUCCESS 
22-AUG-04 18:12 Cashout $50.00 13163910 Db SUCCESS 
21-AUG-04 11:28 Cashout $156.00 13106630 Db SUCCESS 
20-AUG-04 10:28 Cashout $154.00 13051327 Db SUCCESS 
19-AUG-04 20:59 Cashout $127.00 13028486 Db SUCCESS 
19-AUG-04 17:19 Cashout $580.00 13016067 Db SUCCESS 
16-AUG-04 17:56 Cashout $305.00 12882870 Db SUCCESS
This is including the recovery I made from a $457 BR that I was left with when I hit TILT at the start of the month. This is one of my better months but 1/2 of this isn't unusual. I'm quick to post my losses, but I rarely post my big wins. Believe me Fnord my way works! It's not the only way but neither is yours.

7204 Hands 4.03BB/100 and I'm going through a monster Downswing...
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 10:20 PM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty
This is including the recovery I made from a $457 BR that I was left with when I hit TILT at the start of the month. This is one of my better months but 1/2 of this isn't unusual. I'm quick to post my losses, but I rarely post my big wins. Believe me Fnord my way works! It's not the only way but neither is yours.

7204 Hands 4.03BB/100 and I'm going through a monster Downswing...
Nevermind that result excludes your running bad nor the sample size nor that both results are well within the standard deviation expected for our samples sizes.

Over 3BB/100 for over 12k hands, and durring that time I've fixed leaks far worse than raising KJo 3-off the button, then betting out 2nd pair against a fishy cold-caller ever could be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 10:24 PM #19 (permalink)  
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We will have to agree to disagree, I'll play my style you play your's I don't expect either one to come out on top as there isn't one set way to play.
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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Fnord
Old 09-02-2004, 10:31 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toasty
We will have to agree to disagree, I'll play my style you play your's I don't expect either one to come out on top as there isn't one set way to play.
Limit is closer in term of "correctness" of a given decision, particulary against predictably poor players, since you don't have as much room to manipulate value by making up for lost bets on later streets.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Toasty
Old 09-02-2004, 10:44 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Fnord, I've played tables where an UTG raise wins the blinds and I've played tables where an UTG raise is met with 6 calls.

The games changes and so does the rules!!!
Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .
 
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