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pokerlearner
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06-08-2006, 12:56 AM
Post subject: someone in table says i played it wrong..please comment
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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B&M $9-$18.
UTG+1 is tight, MP1 is loose maniac. MP3 is mostly a caller but not a total fish (semi-decent)
Kill Pot ($18-$36).
Hero is on the button with Jd-10d
Preflop:
UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Mp3 calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.
Flop: Kd-9d-3s Even though I have a 4-flush and a gutshot, I didnt 3 bet because i want a multiway pot dont want to drive out UTG+1 here while i am drawing.
Utg+1 checks, MP1 bets, MP3 raises, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 folds.
Flop: Kd-9d-3s-8s I was thinking of raising here but i felt I had no fold equity. and i have one player behind me to call. Other part of me was telling me i have huge equity here and should raise.
MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.
River: Kd-9d-3s-8s-Qh
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 mucks.
MP3 mentions "You didnt want your diamonds" meaning he had the nut flush draw. I dont know if he had a pair or not but he mucked saying "UTG+1 has called here so i dont think my hand is good here" so maybe he had a pair.
MP1 who bet folded the flop saw my draw on showdown and said i didnt pump my draw and it was a mistake. I didnt argue because i realise maybe my logic is flawed and maybe i shouldve 3-bet flop or raised the turn.
Is not raising with 4-flush and a double gutshot a huge mistake? I would have done it in a heartbeat with UTG+1 had bet and 1 person had called. Should i raise here to makeit headsup ???
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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It's fine.
Ask him "why would you raise without a made hand?"
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
It's fine.
Ask him "why would you raise without a made hand?"
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rofl. I love live play.
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thenonsequitur
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06-08-2006, 04:35 AM
Post subject: Re: someone in table says i played it wrong..please comment
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#4 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerlearner
UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Mp3 calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.
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awesome
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Hmm, should we have the debate about whether to move this to the high stakes forum? Its 9/16, which is under 10/20, but its killed, so its 18/36.
my head asplode.
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flotu
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Flush
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 304
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It looks fine for sure. I think a raise preflop would be decent with three limpers infront of you.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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If your raise on the turn folds out the third player, you just volunteered to pay too much for a draw that's only coming in about 1/3 of the time. Well played. Only other reasonable variation from your play is going for a river check-raise, but I wasn't at the table, so I don't know if that would be better or not.
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pokerlearner
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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I cant check raise the river because I am the button. however, even if i was out of position, i wouldnt check raise in a kill pot but would rather lead out.
The only reason for that being in kill pots a lot of people in B&M would not bet their 2 pair or even trips on the river. They feel that the pot is "too big" and they dont want to be checkraise so they value bet less. therefore i would miss a bet there if its checked around. However, if a ultra aggressive player has position on me then thats a different story 
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pokerlearner
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06-08-2006, 06:16 PM
Post subject: Re: someone in table says i played it wrong..please comment
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#9 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by thenonsequitur
Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerlearner
UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Mp3 calls, Hero calls, SB folds, BB folds.
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awesome |
Its because its a kill pot. BB has to put in 3 more chips (its a 3$ chip game). a lot of people would fold with junk cards and being out of position no..
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thenonsequitur
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06-08-2006, 07:56 PM
Post subject: Re: someone in table says i played it wrong..please comment
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#10 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerlearner
Its because its a kill pot. BB has to put in 3 more chips (its a 3$ chip game). a lot of people would fold with junk cards and being out of position no..
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In that case, I was just demonstrating my ignorance of kill pots. I didn't realize that the BB doesn't get in free. I assumed it was one of those rare cases I never understood where someone offered a free look at the flop turns it down.
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Kessler
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 117
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Nope, the blinds stay the same, but the betting structure goes up.
On a conversation note, I try to refrain from discussing strategy at the table, WITH the people I'm playing against. Simply because if you can express a working knowledge of outs, odds, position, etc. (I mean, really know, not just use the keywords and jargon to sound cool) you're giving out way too much information. I don't want the donkeys at the table to know that I know what I'm doing. Granted, one would think that at higher limits that you'd have more skilled players so that wouldn't be an issue, but I've heard enough stories about donkeys at the 30/60+ tables at the Bellagio to know better.
Cheers!
-Kes
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If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.
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pokerlearner
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kessler
Nope, the blinds stay the same, but the betting structure goes up.
On a conversation note, I try to refrain from discussing strategy at the table, WITH the people I'm playing against. Simply because if you can express a working knowledge of outs, odds, position, etc. (I mean, really know, not just use the keywords and jargon to sound cool) you're giving out way too much information. I don't want the donkeys at the table to know that I know what I'm doing. Granted, one would think that at higher limits that you'd have more skilled players so that wouldn't be an issue, but I've heard enough stories about donkeys at the 30/60+ tables at the Bellagio to know better.
Cheers!
-Kes
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Totally agree. Thats why i dont discuss strategy ever anymore (though i made this mistake frequently when i first started playing live poker...and was made aware of this flaw here by my FTR brothers...)
On a different note, can anyone guess what is the most frequently used poker term in a live game is these days.
IMPLIED ODDS...seems like every other young guy is using this term and hiding behind it to limp into a pot whenever a few people have called. EVEN IF THERE IS A RAISE....i have seen people call a raise after some other people have called saying "implied odds baby !!".....
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6high
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 136
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I think not 3betting the flop is a mistake.
You have position and you have so much equity that you have no fear of a cap. Not to mention that this betting sequence shows so much strength when playing live (bet, raise, 3bet) you will get a free card on the turn a significant % of the time. Add to the fact that people hate folding live, especially in a kill pot, there is no reason NOT to 3bet.
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teddosan
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Waukesha, WI
Posts: 22
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by 6high
I think not 3betting the flop is a mistake.
You have position and you have so much equity that you have no fear of a cap. Not to mention that this betting sequence shows so much strength when playing live (bet, raise, 3bet) you will get a free card on the turn a significant % of the time. Add to the fact that people hate folding live, especially in a kill pot, there is no reason NOT to 3bet.
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I disagree. In this situation, because the draw is about a 1/4, cheaper = better; and, because if you complete the draw, it is a hand that is likely to be best, even against many players, more players = more money = better. I like the call.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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3-betting the flop is a huge mistake unless you are at a maniac table where everyone is going to call anyway.
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6high
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Straight
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: NZ
Posts: 136
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by teddosan
Quote:
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Originally Posted by 6high
I think not 3betting the flop is a mistake.
You have position and you have so much equity that you have no fear of a cap. Not to mention that this betting sequence shows so much strength when playing live (bet, raise, 3bet) you will get a free card on the turn a significant % of the time. Add to the fact that people hate folding live, especially in a kill pot, there is no reason NOT to 3bet.
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I disagree. In this situation, because the draw is about a 1/4, |
I don't totally understand what you've said here, but Hero's hand has about 40% equity on the flop.
Quote:
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cheaper = better; and, because if you complete the draw, it is a hand that is likely to be best, even against many players, more players = more money = better. I like the call.
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There is no guarantee that the other players will call anyway and there is only 1 other player who hasn't already contributed to the pot.
There are lots of hands that he may hold that you want to fold. The naked A or Q or he may have JTo himself.
I also think that you are severely undervaluing the free card in this hand.
If Hero was out of position, I may agree with you but not here.
There is a similar hand in SSHE, I think. I don't have it with me, I'm at work but it's in the quiz 'flop' section, I think. I don't remember it very well and I could be off the mark but I'm pretty sure Hero has A4s or something and has a gutshot and a backdoor flush draw.
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xX zorrito Xx
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Wellington, FL
Posts: 300
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
It's fine.
Ask him "why would you raise without a made hand?"
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can i get an amen?..
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