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Some thoughts on the Party 5/10 6 max game

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Fnord

05-28-2005, 05:40 PM Post subject: Some thoughts on the Party 5/10 6 max game

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So I played 2k hands of Party 5/10 6 max. I had played this game quite a bit a few months ago with some success, but given how far I'm come in 3/6 full since then it was a fresh look.

Some thoughts:
o These guys are MUCH better at blind wars. You get no credit for an Ace and they're quite willing to put you in tough spots.
o They really don't like to fold. I had forgetten all about the special class of 6 max bad beat.
o They really hate giving free cards and checking behind on the river.
o I need to study up some more on blind vs blind combat.

I found it tough to steal pots from these guys as I got all sorts of silly calls. I was running at a 20% PFR at first, but I think that's too LAggy at most of these tables. At 3/6 full a pre-flop raise means something, even after they figure out that I'm pretty darn pre-flop aggro. These guys just don't care. I dialed it down a notch and ended up at around 18%.

Until I get more familiarity with post-flop patterns at this level I had to tighten it up and stick to value betting them to death. Although it really sucks not to have a nice stream of small pots comming my way.

net -$141, the rake ate $370

For comparison I played a table of 2/4 6 max at Poker Stars. Much more docile crowd. Caught some cards and ran over the table for more than 20BB.

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Fnord

05-28-2005, 05:52 PM

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Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 2

, 6

.
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 8

, 4

, 3

(6 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, UTG checks, MP checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Turn: (3 BB) 6

(6 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, UTG folds, MP folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB calls.

River: (7 BB) 7

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Results:
SB has 2s 7h (one pair, sevens).
Fnord has 2c 6h (one pair, sixes).
Outcome: SB wins 7 BB.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 9

, A

.
2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Fnord 3-bets, Button calls.

Flop: (6.40 SB) Q

, 9

, 3

(2 players)
Fnord bets, Button raises, Fnord 3-bets, Button caps, Fnord calls.

Turn: (7.20 BB) J

(2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets, Fnord calls.

River: (9.20 BB) Q

(2 players)
Fnord checks, Button bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 11.20 BB

Results:
Fnord has 9c Ad (two pair, queens and nines).
Button has 6h 2h (flush, queen high).
Outcome: Button wins 11.20 BB.

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 3 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with A

, 9

.
1 fold, SB raises, Fnord 3-bets, SB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) 5

, Q

, K

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 3

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks.

River: (4 BB) 2

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 5 BB

Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (6 max, 5 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with J

, T

.
3 folds, SB raises, Fnord calls.

Flop: (4 SB) 3

, 3

, K

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

Turn: (3 BB) Q

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

River: (5 BB) K

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 6 BB

One last thought. I got SPANKED on steal defense. 29 heads-up defense hands for a net -$234.50. I would have lost less folding.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

stuck

05-28-2005, 06:02 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Posts: 586

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnord

I was running at a 20% PFR at first, but I think that's too LAggy at most of these tables

That much? I usually run a PFR of only 11-13% at 6max 2/4. I almost never open limp and often don't want to raise marginal hands behind several limpers. Leak?

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I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

Fnord

05-28-2005, 06:08 PM

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I run a 10-12%ish PFR at most 3/6 tables depending on the texture. I ran a 40% steal durring my run at 5/10 6 max. Full table I steal between 35-40%.

My approximate steal range is...

CO:
Any 2 cards 9 or higher
Any 2 cards 8 or higher suited
Any pocket pair
A8o or better
A5s or better

Button:
Any 2 cards 8 or higher
Any 2 cards 7 or higher suited
Any pocket pair
A5o or better
Any suited Ace
K5s or better

It also depends on what I think I can get away with. If the blinds are tight, I'm throwing in suited connectors, maybe unsuited connectors, gappers, etc.

Similar range gets raised if the SB tries to limp into my BB. When the Button open limps I raise tighter then this. I also am tighter stealing from the SB, as being caught with just a couple ohkayish cards out of position really sucks when you miss the flop.

Full ring players below the 10/20 level are usually so horrible at blind defense that I think you're giving up too much by not stealing this aggressivly. Also, my guess is some players will see you steal or isolate thin, then fail to realize that you're still opening tight from EP and hence will give you more action against your strongest hands.

Finally, notice that I avoid the weakest offsuit Aces. Consider that if you have A2o, the most common flops you'll hit are Axy and 2xy. In either case, you won't get much action from worse hands very often. Also when stealing I'll often take down a Axy flop without resistance (although the 5/10 6 max players seem to fight back a lot more often in this spot.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

stuck

05-28-2005, 06:38 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Those hands have some crazy-odd aggression in them. I'm surprised SB doesn't fold to your raise in the first hand.

Did you consider raising the flop on the last hand? Maybe SB would just 3-bet you right back, but it might slow him down enough for you to take it on the turn..

Blind wars in 6-max can get so absurd.

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

Fnord

05-28-2005, 06:45 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

Those hands have some crazy-odd aggression in them.

I think A9o is a pretty routine 3-bet vs a steal raise *cackle*

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

Did you consider raising the flop on the last hand?

I was drawing to middle pair! I just call in this spot to force the aggressor to make a turn bet (per HEFAP) and balance out the times I want to call the flop so I can make a move on the turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

koolmoe

05-28-2005, 06:57 PM

#7 (permalink)

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The biggest thing that has helped me is displaying WtSD% on Playerview. There's a class of player there that insists you show them a hand. I've stopped spewing chips at them.

There's also a class of players that will try to bet you into submission, which is why the first class of players exists, IMO.

I've also become willing to defend my blinds with a pretty wide range of hands. It's the only way to get them to lay off your blinds.

Poker is freedom

Fnord

05-28-2005, 07:01 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by koolmoe

The biggest thing that has helped me is displaying WtSD% on Playerview. There's a class of player there that insists you show them a hand. I've stopped spewing chips at them.

What ranges do you look for in this number? How long does it take to get a reasonable sample size? Also, any thoughts on figuring out when it's worth firing another shot on the turn? river? There are some spots in full ring where I'm done after a token flop bluff and I rarely bother with river bluffs because most players have enough to call 1 more by the time we get there (and most hands I'm playing beat a busted draw unimproved often enough anyway, which isn't the case in 6 max.) However, short-handed folks like to go that extra mile...

Am I the only person who giggles like a school girl when KJo takes it down unimproved?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

05-28-2005, 07:22 PM

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Hand 2: why no bet the river?

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Fnord

05-28-2005, 07:47 PM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Hand 2: why no bet the river?

Good point. Either I missed it and/or had flipped the bozo bit on this guy and had commited myself to check/calling the turn + river unimproved. Sometimes I just make up my mind to both showdown a hand and see what the other guy is up to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

stuck

05-28-2005, 08:53 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

Those hands have some crazy-odd aggression in them.

I think A9o is a pretty routine 3-bet vs a steal raise *cackle*

I think your play was fine there. Cap with 6/2s though? That's probably the craziest blind wars cap I've seen.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by stuck

Did you consider raising the flop on the last hand?

I was drawing to middle pair! I just call in this spot to force the aggressor to make a turn bet (per HEFAP) and balance out the times I want to call the flop so I can make a move on the turn.

Of course, of course. I wouldn't make that play all the time. But occasionally I'll re-raise that flop there so he doesn't get the idea that he can just run over me w/ 8 high. I don't know if that particular SB would do it, but in some of my forays into 3/6 6max some particularly Aggro SBs would.

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

ArcticKnight

05-31-2005, 06:34 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Fnord

Did you notice all the cold-calling in 6 max.

UTG raise PreFlop, followed by two cold-callers is not uncommon, and cold-calling 3 bets even...

My cold-calling at 6 max is running about 1%, and I swear that the average is 4 or 5% for most of the weaker/passive players.

I think there is certainly a place for more cold-calling in 6 max, but some guys go way over the top with some marginal stuff.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

stuck

05-31-2005, 07:07 AM

#13 (permalink)

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Posts: 586

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

My cold-calling at 6 max is running about 1%, and I swear that the average is 4 or 5% for most of the weaker/passive players.

I think there is certainly a place for more cold-calling in 6 max, but some guys go way over the top with some marginal stuff.

My cold-calling is running even lower than that (about %0.6) according to PT (maybe it's a leak *shrug*). I just tonight saw someone coldcall my 3-bet with QTo.

Good for us!

If I had a hammer
I'd drop in the morning
I'd drop in the evening..

TylerK

05-31-2005, 08:10 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Am I the only person who giggles like a school girl when KJo takes it down unimproved?

...preflop.

...when I open raise UTG.

...on a full ring table.

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

Fnord

05-31-2005, 08:17 PM

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No, on the river when I check behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

koolmoe

05-31-2005, 08:55 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Sorry for the delayed reply. I'm just seeing this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

What ranges do you look for in this number?

Anything near 30% is someone who will fold most turns heads up without a piece of the board. These guys will also reliably fold hands like middle pair or overcards to check raise bluffs, so I'll occasionally semibluff check-raise them if I have a draw but no real showdown power.

Anything over 50% is someone who is going to showdown with any piece of the board heads up. 60-70% is the guy showing down K high and chasing gutshots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

How long does it take to get a reasonable sample size?

For a loose preflop player, about 40-60 hands is enough to get a firm grasp, but I start basing decisions on the numbers after 20 hands or so. The guy playing 50% of his hands has had 25 chances to go to showdown after 50 hands. For a tight player, you'll need more hands obviously, but preflop tightness and low WtSD seem to correlate, so I'll start using it after 20 hands or so if it is in the right range.

I should mention that I observe most tables with PT/PV before sitting, so I almost always have 20+ hands before sitting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Also, any thoughts on figuring out when it's worth firing another shot on the turn? river? There are some spots in full ring where I'm done after a token flop bluff and I rarely bother with river bluffs because most players have enough to call 1 more by the time we get there (and most hands I'm playing beat a busted draw unimproved often enough anyway, which isn't the case in 6 max.) However, short-handed folks like to go that extra mile...

The flop bet is pretty worthless as a bluff in 6-max. Nobody's folding the flop unless a tight player raised preflop and an A is on board. A flop raise/check-raise with a turn bet is about what it takes to push the average 6maxer off the pot, and I will use this heads up against someone who will fold. Some guys just won't fold until the river, so you need to be willing to fire all three barrels.

That said, I rarely stone cold bluff in 6max. Instead, I'm betting marginal hands (like A-little on a blind steal/defense) as if I have the best hand because I often do. I will sometimes bet my strong draws on every street when I don't hit or maybe even raise the turn against an aggressive player who will lay down a hand. I do this by feel, I don't really have any statistical markers for it, and it mostly depends on how many strong hands I've recently shown down. I'm more apt to semi-bluff when I've had the goods recently or when I haven't been getting paid off on my big hands.

As far as who to target: an aggressive player with a low WtSD is the ideal player to bluff in 5/10 6max, IMO. They want control of the hand and will run away if you take it from them.

Poker is freedom

Toasty

06-23-2005, 05:53 PM

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wow some nice advice there, thanks Fnord and Moe!

What program do you guys use for the stats on these guys, i've heard of poker edge, but you have to pay for it ? is it worth the money ?

Thanks

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RiverMonkey

06-23-2005, 06:27 PM Post subject: Re: Some thoughts on the Party 5/10 6 max game

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I found it tough to steal pots from these guys as I got all sorts of silly calls. I was running at a 20% PFR at first, but I think that's too LAggy at most of these tables. At 3/6 full a pre-flop raise means something, even after they figure out that I'm pretty darn pre-flop aggro. These guys just don't care. I dialed it down a notch and ended up at around 18%.

What do you think a good range is for VPIP in 5/10 6-max? You're definitely playing more hands compared to full ring, so 20 to 28ish, or is the high end of that range too high?

elipsesjeff

06-23-2005, 06:28 PM

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I can readd some material to this post.

Fnord: At what time of day were you playing this sample? I find from 12-6 you find the real grinders and its very common to lose 60 BB during this time frame and it takes the entire day for me to catch up, even with table selection.

from 7 pm to 3 am I find to be the best time to play. You find a lot more stupid players and you can run them over all to frequently. The only reason I bring this up is because what you described in your original post is what I find during the afternoon games, but less moreso than at night.

Also, what made you so upset? You lost 14 BB and you were getting 9 BB or so back in Rakeback. Thats like 2 hands man before you break even and more than likely you can bring this up in like 100 hands or less if you find the right tables.

When I first read this post I thought differently than I do now, i've had 90 BB swings over the course of 200 hands about 3 or 4 times already, and I've only been playing for a week and a half!!! I think you can make more money playing 5/10 6 max than you can at 3/6 full. Considering that 1 BB/100 at 3 tabling 5/10 6 max is equivalent to 3 BB/100 at 3/6 full. I believe with PE that you have now you can find better tables and have better stats on the players, combine that with a good time of day and you'll be in good shape.

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jmontis

06-23-2005, 06:40 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I
Fnord: At what time of day were you playing this sample? I find from 12-6 you find the real grinders and its very common to lose 60 BB during this time frame and it takes the entire day for me to catch up, even with table selection.

from 7 pm to 3 am I find to be the best time to play.

This is SO important, I NEVER play during the day, who do you think is on at 2pm on a Thursday?

Sunday nights are when the games are sweetest

Nehmer

06-23-2005, 07:14 PM

#21 (permalink)

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My impressions so far of 5/10 6-max. I've now played over 3000 hands over the past 2 weeks and have come to some conclusions of my own.

These people are worse at blind wars than the people at an average 3/6 full ring table. They assume everybody is just stealing their blinds and will play back at you even with garbage hands. They may not give that ace much respect on the flop, but they don't give it respect to the tune of paying me off big time. Their style of defense seems to be exactly what somebody like me(who steals a bit less than average) wants to be up vs.

Most of the people tend to play way too many hands and call down way too much again paying off somebody like me who tends to usually have a hand while betting.

Maybe it's just beginners luck on my part, but I am murdering this game to the tune of 7.2 BB/100 so far, which I'm sure won't keep up, but 3000 hands is a decent amount to be running that good at and I think it's enough for me to determine that this game is definately softer than the 3/6 full ring game where over the past month I've only made about 2.45 BB/100.

Element187

06-23-2005, 07:19 PM

#22 (permalink)

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ive been curious about that.. the way people play at the higher stakes.. playing J8o and taking it to the river with the foot on the gas the entire way.

seems like tightening up will dessimate them, when they start getting bet happy with a small pair when i hold AA/KK

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Toasty

06-24-2005, 05:11 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nehmer

Maybe it's just beginners luck on my part, but I am murdering this game to the tune of 7.2 BB/100 so far, which I'm sure won't keep up, but 3000 hands is a decent amount to be running that good at and I think it's enough for me to determine that this game is definately softer than the 3/6 full ring game where over the past month I've only made about 2.45 BB/100.

Sounds like you have been running good, 6max has crazy swings due to the increase in hands being played and a such you will probably need 50k min to know if you can beat it.

Poker is all about the long long long long long long long term . . .
Barney's back . . . back again . . .

koolmoe

06-29-2005, 04:16 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nehmer

FWIW, I played my first 2500 hands or so at about 9BB/100. I've settled at about 2 BB/100.

Poker is freedom

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Some thoughts on the Party 5/10 6 max game

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