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Some hands from tonight

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Fnord

04-09-2005, 07:13 AM Post subject: Some hands from tonight

#1 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Hand 1

BB is loose/passive

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with A

, Q

. MP2 posts a blind of $3. Fnord posts a blind of $3.
1 fold, Fnord (poster) raises, MP2 (poster) calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 5

, 3

(4 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, MP2 folds, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5.66 BB) 2

(3 players)
BB bets, Fnord raises, Button folds, BB calls.

River: (9.66 BB) J

(2 players)
BB checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: 9.66 BB

Hand 2
MP3 bet into me after a PFR when he caught a 2 on the turn. Otherwise a loose twit.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with A

, T

.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 3

, 9

, 4

(5 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5 BB) T

(5 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, Fnord 3-bets, BB calls, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (15 BB) 6

(3 players)
Fnord bets, BB calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 18 BB

Hand 3

Yet another loose/passive twit

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 9

, 9

.
4 folds, CO calls, 1 fold, Fnord raises, 1 fold, CO calls.

Flop: (5 SB) K

, 8

, 2

(3 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 7

(3 players)
Fnord bets, CO calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 3

(3 players)
Fnord bets, CO raises, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Hand 4

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (6 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with A

, A

.
Fnord raises, MP calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) 8

, Q

, 6

(4 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, MP calls, CO raises, BB folds, Fnord calls, MP calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) A

(3 players)
Fnord checks, MP checks, CO checks.

River: (7.16 BB) K

(3 players)
Fnord checks, MP checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 7.16 BB

Hand 5
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 8

, 8

.
4 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 9

, 5

, 7

(4 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, MP2 calls, MP3 raises, SB folds, Fnord calls, MP2 calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J

(3 players)
Fnord checks, MP2 checks, MP3 bets, Fnord calls, MP2 calls.

River: (8 BB) T

(3 players)
Fnord bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

Hand 6
Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 7

, A

.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5

, 4

, 3

(4 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, UTG calls, MP2 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 6

(4 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls, UTG folds, MP2 calls.

River: (7 BB) 3

(3 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls, MP2 calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB

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Admerylous

04-09-2005, 07:43 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Location: Delaware

Posts: 108

I like them all but why didn't you bet out on hand #6 on the river? Worried about the better straight with 78? You should probably be less worried about the boat as he was betting out when the turn; or were you worried we was checking to see where his trips stood and that the river boated them?

Fnord

04-09-2005, 08:05 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Admerylous

Figured it was a split pot and wanted to keep the 3rd guy (whoever it was) paying both of us off. The paired board on the river just tipped the scales more towards going for the over-call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

lonnie

04-09-2005, 01:45 PM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Aug 2004

Posts: 923

Hands 1-3 are very instructive. Those are some bad situations you can find yourself in when out of position. Do you think you played these well?

Hand 1 - Can you explain why exactly you raised the turn? Was your opp capable of folding here or did you really feel you had the best hand? I guess the other alternative would be to fold. Is there any way you can win this hand if you don't make a bet on the river?

Hand 2 - I like your line except you had to be a little concerned being out of position on the river with 2 callers on the turn. A tricky hand for sure. You are probably good though.

Hand 3 -Yet again we find Fnord in a sticky situation out of position. Is the check call a better option when you aren't sure you have the best hand at the river and are out of position. It does look as though your opp caught 2 pair on the river from the play of the hand. I can remember a time when you might have checked this river.

Hand 4 - OUCH

Hand 5 & 6 - Excellent examples of how to gutshot someone.

|~|ypermegachi

04-09-2005, 02:40 PM

#5 (permalink)

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hand 1: i do not like the turn raise at all. if you do that i think you should throw in the desperate river bluff.

hand 2: 3bet with TPTK?? may seem overly aggressive. but then i wouldn't feel good folding or calling either.

hand 3: meh
hand 4: i'm rammin and jammin the turn.

hand 5: no odds to call....why call the turn?

hand 6: dunno....i think i might raise this to protect from the flush. you seem to think someone else will split it with you too often.

Fnord

04-09-2005, 05:04 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

hand 1: i do not like the turn raise at all. if you do that i think you should throw in the desperate river bluff.

My hand beats most bluffs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

hand 2: 3bet with TPTK?? may seem overly aggressive. but then i wouldn't feel good folding or calling either.

Exactly. Can't fold, can't call, RAISE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

hand 4: i'm rammin and jammin the turn.

Yes, I should have bet the turn, but what's the point of a 3-bet if raised?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

hand 5: no odds to call....why call the turn?

On the flop, I might have the best hand if no one has a nine, from there I had odds to call my gutshot + set draws on a rainbow flop. I picked up 4 more outs on the turn.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

04-09-2005, 05:08 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by lonnie

Hand 3 -Yet again we find Fnord in a sticky situation out of position. Is the check call a better option when you aren't sure you have the best hand at the river and are out of position. It does look as though your opp caught 2 pair on the river from the play of the hand. I can remember a time when you might have checked this river.

Check/call is a better line only if we're likely to draw a bluff or have Kxx check behind.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

LeFou

04-09-2005, 05:50 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

hand 4: i'm rammin and jammin the turn.

I'd bet it, but I don't know about jamming. A raise will be a good spade, giving me boat odds and it's call, check-fold if I miss.

|~|ypermegachi

04-09-2005, 06:29 PM

#9 (permalink)

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hand 4: if i can ram and jam with both players i will.

but if my bet gets raised, and drives out the 3rd player i wouldn't 3bet, and just call it down.

Trikflow77

04-09-2005, 10:23 PM

#10 (permalink)

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On hand three I like your line except for the river, but I do agree with how you played the line. If you are raised on the river you have to fold this hand, and many would not. Being that you called him a twit, I would be more inclined to check the river, would not want to fold a winner vs. A8 or something along those lines. Plus if he has nothing you induce the bluff. But the board is ragged and when he called the flop he either has nothing Kx or maybe an 8.

If this was a good player, I would have shut down on the turn because the texture of this board dos not warrent any draws calling.

Fnord

04-09-2005, 10:26 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

On hand three I like your line except for the river

Make the case I'm wrong.

What is his range of likely hands?
What are the odds he checks behind a better hand on the river?
What are the odds he bluffs if checked to?
What are the odds he raises the river with a worse hand?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

04-09-2005, 10:45 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

What is his range of likely hands?

Ok, if he is a laggy twit you cant really narrow his hands down too much on the flop. I would say anywhere from ace high to a weak king or an 8X. When he called the turn I would rule out hands like qj j10 and other hands weak players will call the flop with. On the turn I would put him on A8 weak king or a lower pocketpair.

What are the odds he checks behind a better hand on the river?

He most likely will bet the river if you check, of course with a better hand.
I would say 80% of the time hes betting with Kx.

What are the odds he bluffs if checked to?

This is where I make my case. If he has nothing, he will bet if checked. If he has A8 he would bet most of the time I believe. This is all based on you saying he is laggy and not very good.

What are the odds he raises the river with a worse hand?

Most players will not raise a river with a weak hand, so odds are if he raises, then folding is best. That is why I said it is mandatory to fold the river to a raise.

My point is what is the difference between checking and calling or betting and folding to a raise?

Your bet is going to be called by a better hand every time. Your hand will be called by a weaker pair every time. If he has nothing he will fold.

Your check will induce a bet by a better hand MOST of the time. The same with a weaker hand, bad players like to bluff. This a big factor in why i would check. If he was calling with trash, he might bluff at it, and you win an extra bet.

The difference.......you get to show down your hand and eleminate the possiblity that he can bluff you out of a pot. You would get 6.5 to 1 on your river call, and i think your hand is good here enough to check call every time. I would want to show my hand down here.

The river check is more for value than a bet because of his laggy play and his willingness to bet a weaker hand for you. No reason to sniff out a bigger hand.

elipsesjeff

04-11-2005, 04:47 PM

#13 (permalink)

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elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

Hand 1: Loopy player and You're raising him with Ace high? That doesn't make sense. Pot is too small to really call down this guys pocket pair. He gave you an easy outlet on the turn that you should have folded.

Hand 2: Meh.

Hand 3: I'm pretty sure you'll win this more than 12% of the time you can make a crying call here. I at least would have liked to know what this guy was slowplaying.

Hand 4: Eewwwww. How many rules did you break on the turn here?

Hand 5: Meh. Got lucky.

Hand 6: Why arent you raising here? Just because it MIGHT be a split pot doesnt mean anything here. What are you worried about feeding the rake? You have to give MP2 a chance to make a mistake in calling you. The guy could also be betting with a measly 2. I mean, whats the point in leading your gutshot draw on the flop if you arent going to raise it once you hit it?

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mgobluefb

04-13-2005, 01:18 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Hand 6: Might have raised turn, but a good play going for overcalls on the river. Do I make any sense?

Demiparadigm

04-13-2005, 02:55 AM

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Hand 1: meh. The BB is loose passive so you can expect him to call your raise. I think the only way a raise on the turn is correct is if you plan to call on the river. Otherwise, I think a fold is correct. You are probably beat, and you odds of improving are slim (10 outs at most, but you could be drawing dead.) The pot is laying you 5:1 Which is right on the threshold of callability.

Hand 2: fold on the flop. You have little invested in a relatively small pot, and poor position with little chance to improve. Good play on the turn. Unfortunately, you only knocked out 1 player who likely had little chance to beat you. MP3 usually has you beat here also, without a god read I would put him on 2 pair or a set.

Hand 3: well played, good laydown, but you are getting 8:1 odds to call, and you would get valuable information about your opponents hand and style of play. A call is not a bad option.

Hand 4: Bet the turn, call a raise. You may have the best hand, you may get a smaller spade to fold, you have 10 outs against the nuts.

Hand 5: This has great tilt equity. You have exactly the odds you need to call with a gutshot on the flop, and a double gutshot on the river. Then when you win, you say "I knew you were bluffing!"

Hand 6: This flop bet is trash in a loose passive game, out of position. I like the calls on the turn, looking for overcalls, and river, when the board pairs.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

Fnord

04-13-2005, 03:02 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Hand 2: fold on the flop. You have little invested in a relatively small pot, and poor position with little chance to improve. Good play on the turn. Unfortunately, you only knocked out 1 player who likely had little chance to beat you. MP3 usually has you beat here also, without a god read I would put him on 2 pair or a set.

9:1 closing the action isn't good enough to call that flop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Hand 6: This flop bet is trash in a loose passive game, out of position. I like the calls on the turn, looking for overcalls, and river, when the board pairs.

Party 3/6 isn't your typical loose/passive LL game. I expect to win the pot or improve often enough to bet out.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Demiparadigm

04-13-2005, 04:34 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by fnord

9:1 closing the action isn't good enough to call that flop?

You only need 8:1 to call profitably with 6 outs, but this is a relatively coordinated board with a few draws possible, so a number of times that you do make your hand you will still lose. The A

and T

are tainted, and you may be reverse dominated by something like A3.

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

elipsesjeff

04-13-2005, 03:22 PM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Demiparadigm

Quote:

Originally Posted by fnord

9:1 closing the action isn't good enough to call that flop?

You only need 8:1 to call profitably with 6 outs, but this is a relatively coordinated board with a few draws possible, so a number of times that you do make your hand you will still lose. The A

and T

are tainted, and you may be reverse dominated by something like A3.

He was getting odds to call here. The guy is either betting his flush draw or has a 9, if he doesnt hit his flush you probably have him beat and if you hit your card you also have him beat. This is worth one small bet to call for the turn card.

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