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Some 6 Max Hands

  
 
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Ltrain
Old 04-14-2006, 08:51 PM     Post subject: Some 6 Max Hands #1 (permalink)  
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Hand #1:
Villians are 35/16 and 29/19, but seemed predictable postflop.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, J.
1 fold, MP raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K, Q, 6 (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets, Hero raises, BB calls, MP folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 4 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

River: (5.50 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BB checks.

Final Pot: 5.50 BB

Hand #2

I find my self in this situation a lot with two pair against a likely straight. Raise or fold the turn?

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with T, A.
Hero raises, 1 fold, CO calls, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (7 SB) T, Q, A (3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, SB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J (3 players)
SB bets, Hero ?


Hand #3

Villians are 43/17 and 52/37

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, T.
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero calls, BB calls.

Flop: (6 SB) K, K, J (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

Turn: (3 BB) J (3 players)
Hero bets...

Final Pot: 4 BB
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-14-2006, 09:44 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Hand 1:
i donk bet the river he seems to have a non K because why would a K give a free card with a bunch of draws out? I think he has Qx... You’re ahead… IMO

Hand 2:
Bet the flop hand plays differently from there... your hand is to venerable to draws and you would like to genially figure out where you are in the hand... IMO

Hand 3:
meah I hate cold calling an UTG raise here... but it's not THAT bad i guess to call an uber argo player but I like to 3 bet iso raise a lot... bet the flop on your OESD, a J or K will show up on the flop and you can easily muck the turn... IMO

Over all it looks like you are waiting to the turn with non lock hands and coordinated boards you need to feel out where you are when the flop is coordinated and you are volatile, if the flop was like AT6 on hand one then waiting for the turn is ok... IMO
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Xanadu
Old 04-14-2006, 10:31 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Hand 1 and 3, I fold preflop. Hand 1, that flop action was ideal for you, why wuss out on the turn and the river? your opponent has JT or bottom pair or worse. Value bet turn and river. Hand 2 you must bet the flop to protect your hand, and all is different after that. Hand 3, I usually bet the flop, but really have no problem with checking.
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-14-2006, 11:03 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanadu
Hand 1 and 3, I fold preflop. Hand 1, that flop action was ideal for you, why wuss out on the turn and the river? your opponent has JT or bottom pair or worse. Value bet turn and river. Hand 2 you must bet the flop to protect your hand, and all is different after that. Hand 3, I usually bet the flop, but really have no problem with checking.
i think what i meant by my comments on Hand 3 is basicly 3 bet or fold PF on Hand 1 and 3... but it's probably really thin to 3 bet QJo or QTs...

I dug into mydata base of 3/6 which is 21000 hands about and i never 3 bet QJo or QJs... Probably the same with QT...

I ran QJo though poker stove aganst a top 16% of hands PFR
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

{ 66+, A7s+, A5s, K9s+, Q9s+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QJo }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand MP:
63.2216 % 60.27% 02.95%

Hand You:
36.7784 % 33.83% 02.95% { QJo }
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand MP:
59.8662 % 57.14% 02.73%

Hand You:
40.1338 % 37.40% 02.73% { QJs }
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~

I wasn't sure who the UTG raiser was in Hand 3 so i ran both:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~

{ 66+, A5s+, K9s+, Q9s+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QTo+ }

equity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand UTG:
61.6714 % 58.84% 02.83%

Hand YOU:
38.3286 % 35.50% 02.83% { QTs }

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~
{ 44+, A2s+, K3s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, A4o+, K7o+, Q9o+, J9o+, T9o }

quity (%) win (%) tie (%)
Hand UTG:
52.8208 % 51.06% 01.77%

Hand YOU:
47.1792 % 45.41% 01.77% { QTs }
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
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Ltrain
Old 04-15-2006, 12:01 AM #5 (permalink)  
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On the preflop comments, the TAG in me agrees with your comments, but from slowing down and really analyzing the way people are playing 6 max, I have made the following realizations:

1. You are giving people too much credit on ranges for preflop raises, Even with pokertracker stats, you can't narrow it down as far as the range you have (I was at 16% PFR and for a time was raising any suited connectors from the button on a tight table);
2. Yes, I am behind preflop, but the odds I am getting, both straight, and by implied deception for later streets, should justify at least a call on the flop.
3. Flop bets and calls don't mean much.
4. If I folded these regularly and you looked at my stats, I would probably show a SB defend percentage of about 80-85 % fold to raise and you would say, "you fold too much in the SB, call more".

I also hear you on the 3 bets, and believe me it's an adjustment not to go for it, but I don't want to 3bet in these particular cases because I won't know If I will continue until after the flop. If I 3bet, it is to eliminate the BB, but I know I am likely behind and I don't think the added benefit of removing the BB (If he folds) will justify the 3bet or help me that much post flop. Also, If I hit my pair, we likely check to the raiser and I can checkraise the BB out, or at least know my TP is susceptible to a draw. Plus, in hand #3 I want BB to call. I have a hand that plays well multiway if I hit and want to get paid off if I hit. If I 3bet, the raiser at least calls, and I don't have much initiative or show down value against the raiser OOP.
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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Xanadu
Old 04-15-2006, 01:14 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Yeah, Ltrain, on second thought, calling preflop on hand 3 is probably ok. But here is something to think about. Do you really want BB to call? A big part of short table play is charging the blinds to play. How many hands can BB profitably call one more bet preflop getting 5:1? Probably more than half. Is your hand that much better than the average of his calling range that you really want a call ... enough that his call is really more profitable for you than a fold? If you raise, you give him 3:1 to call. Him being 52/37, you may induce a bigger mistake by raising.

Playing the 6-max, I see most preflop decisions as raise/fold decisions. Especially when there has already been a raise before acting. I just don't see very many situations where a cold call can be correct at a short table (and I consider a call of a raise from the SB a cold call). I do it less than once in 5000 hands.
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pokerfanatic
Old 04-15-2006, 02:57 AM #7 (permalink)  
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As i said i crunched the numbers based on if they were rasing only the TOP x% of hands...
“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~

"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~

"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
 
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Ltrain
Old 04-15-2006, 03:13 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xanadu
Yeah, Ltrain, on second thought, calling preflop on hand 3 is probably ok. But here is something to think about. Do you really want BB to call? A big part of short table play is charging the blinds to play. How many hands can BB profitably call one more bet preflop getting 5:1? Probably more than half. Is your hand that much better than the average of his calling range that you really want a call ... enough that his call is really more profitable for you than a fold? If you raise, you give him 3:1 to call. Him being 52/37, you may induce a bigger mistake by raising.

Playing the 6-max, I see most preflop decisions as raise/fold decisions. Especially when there has already been a raise before acting. I just don't see very many situations where a cold call can be correct at a short table (and I consider a call of a raise from the SB a cold call). I do it less than once in 5000 hands.
Thanks for the discussion. I don't necessarily disagree with you and Q,Jo is at about the limit of what I would either call or 3 bet in this situation, but for postflop purposes, I want to keep the pot low. Let's say I 3 bet, BB calls, Raiser calls. Haven't I now given all parties odds to at least see the turn on any flop? If BB folds and I am HU to the raiser, doesn't the raiser now have odds to likely go to the river? Also, at 50% VPIP, I don't know how much use his fold button is getting PF

This is an example of why I think 6 max can be very profitable, but yet so hard because it takes "It depends" to a higher level than what I was facing in a full ring. There are so many more difficult decisions to make because most choices are only slightly positive or negative EV and reads are vital.
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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Ltrain
Old 04-15-2006, 03:17 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
As i said i crunched the numbers based on if they were rasing only the TOP x% of hands...
Right thanks for the stats help, but even on your percentages, I have just enough odds to call if you count the BB dead money and the inevitable continuation bet by the raiser. I agree though, it isn't much.
"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
 
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