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So apparently I suck at 6max...
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euphoricism
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03-15-2006, 04:59 AM
Post subject: So apparently I suck at 6max...
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Looking for any suggestions. I'm at a complete loss. Everything looks fine. These are all sixmax hands, some are pre-party-change, some are post.


Some hands from tonight:
1. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with 8 , A .
1 fold, MP raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, Hero calls.
Flop: (6.50 SB) 2 , 9 , J (3 players)
Hero checks, MP bets, Button raises, Hero calls, MP calls.
Turn: (6.25 BB) T (3 players)
Hero checks, MP checks, Button bets, Hero raises, MP folds, Button folds.
Final Pot: 9.25 BB
2. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with K , J .
2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.
Flop: (6.50 SB) T , K , 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button caps, Hero calls.
Turn: (7.25 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
River: (9.25 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 11.25 BB
3. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is UTG with J , Q .
Hero raises, 2 folds, Button calls, SB calls, 1 fold.
Flop: (7 SB) 2 , 6 , 7 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, Button folds, SB calls.
Turn: (4.50 BB) Q (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.
River: (6.50 BB) J (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.
Final Pot: 10.50 BB
4. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is UTG with 7 , A .
Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.
Flop: (4.50 SB) 8 , Q , 8 (2 players)
BB bets, Hero folds.
Final Pot: 2.75 BB
5. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with 6 , 6 .
2 folds, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero calls.
Flop: (4.50 SB) T , 3 , K (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
Turn: (3.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.
River: (5.25 BB) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls.
Final Pot: 7.25 BB
NOTE This was a "fuck off" blind defense. It was folding to him a lot, and he raised every time. I think this was like the 6th in a row. I was essentially attempting to lose on purpose. (And should have unchecked my automuck...)
6. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with 9 , 7 .
4 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB calls.
Flop: (6 SB) 7 , J , J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.
Turn: (4 BB) T (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks.
River: (4 BB) 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB folds.
Final Pot: 5 BB
7. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is Button with 6 , A .
UTG calls, MP raises, 1 fold, Hero calls, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls.
Flop: (8.50 SB) 9 , Q , 8 (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, Hero calls, BB folds, UTG folds.
Turn: (5.25 BB) 7 (2 players)
MP bets, Hero raises, MP calls.
River: (9.25 BB) J (2 players)
MP checks, Hero checks.
Final Pot: 9.25 BB
8. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with Q , T .
3 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, Hero calls.
Flop: (8 SB) 9 , T , 8 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero caps, SB calls.
Turn: (8 BB) 9 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.
River: (10 BB) J (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.
Final Pot: 12 BB
9. Party Poker 10/20 Hold'em (6 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is BB with 6 , 7 .
4 folds, SB completes, Hero raises, SB calls.
Flop: (4 SB) T , K , 3 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB folds.
Final Pot: 2.50 BB
What I "feel" is wrong is that I am not getting paid off at all, but I am paying off huge. Someone got a remedy for this? As I told jeff, I feel like I was in a bad car accident and somehow forgot how to walk.
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Flush
Join Date: Jul 2005
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Welcome to my world. Same feeling I get, to which you add the feeling I usually only get paid off to the river to river their shitty kicker for 2 pair, etc.
Constructively, i'm not one to give advice to a 5/10 - 10/20 player, but I do have a question. JQo open raise UTG 6handed is just mixing it up, yeah?
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elipsesjeff
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Join Date: Jul 2004
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Aye, you've got some problems.
1) You aren't going to get paid off much either way. Better table selection would be the only way.
2) This hand really isn't that bad. If I were him I'm capping with any OESD or flush draw here so you really cant do anything but call down. I try to put in no more than 3 BB on the turn or river when I'm unsure when I'm ahead or behind and you accomplished that via the flop cap anyway.
3) Fold Preflop.
4) learn how to steal. I dont like raising preflop then folding for one bet on the flop, especially HU. Not unless I'm leaving the very next hand, which if thats the case this isn't hand isnt that questionable.
5) 3 bet preflop, makes for an easier postflop fold if he'll show aggression. Against a complete maniac or a guy raising anytwo i have check/called down the entire expecting to win only 1/2 the time.
6) If you know he is stealing, and with worse hands then I call preflop (but most of the time I'm folding this hand). He has to steal like 45% of his hands for this to be profitable. I'm not checking behind the turn though, your hand is too vulnerable to give him free outs.
7) Why are you cold calling preflop (I thought you never coldcalled....)? Why are you calling the flop? Why are you rasing the turn? Why Why Why Why??? (actually the turn raise isnt that bad IMO but it all depends on your image at the table at this point)
8) Since he capped preflop I can see myself just calling down with your hand and possibly raising the river. You're only going to get a worse hand to fold.
9) why post this? I'm not raising this preflop as you arent going to get SB to fold and you don't have any equity edge at this point. I'll see my free flop and say thank you everytime (not literally). I'll put in only ONE SB if he checks to me on the flop but after that I throw it away.
Overall, I dont think you are playing that bad, but you are picking the wrong spots. You also have to adjust your game to the situations and nights. Monday nights play differently than friday nights; 4 pm plays differently than 9 pm, etc.
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elipsesjeff
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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7) Why are you cold calling preflop (I thought you never coldcalled....)? Why are you calling the flop? Why are you rasing the turn? Why Why Why Why??? (actually the turn raise isnt that bad IMO but it all depends on your image at the table at this point)
There are a few very choice places where I will coldcall. I dont see how this is a "bad" cold call... by threebetting, A) I'm probably behind, B) I knock out the SB/BB, killing my FD odds. I dont want them out.
I will rephrase and say i cold call approx. 3%
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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9) I post this because I think checking there is giving up the hand. If I raise, I often take it down on the flop (as I did) whereas if I checked, he donks the flop with any two and I have to fold. I've really stopped checking in the BB when it folds to the SB and he completes. I almost always raise, with almost any two.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
9) I post this because I think checking there is giving up the hand. If I raise, I often take it down on the flop (as I did) whereas if I checked, he donks the flop with any two and I have to fold. I've really stopped checking in the BB when it folds to the SB and he completes. I almost always raise, with almost any two.
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Could be a leak.
In my experience they dont donk any two and will check/call many things and even check/fold.
hand 7: so do you realize why your cold call is bad in this situation or no?
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
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This might not be right but I’ll take a stab...
Hand 1:
Well when you cold called 2 on the flop it's pretty obvious what you have, no deception at all on your hand... I don't really expect you to get called down by any half ass player that is paying any attention...
Hand 2:
umm, 3 betting the BB with KJo, I like to see a flop before I go wild on raising, when he caps meah seems like a set, AK, or A5h or something completely stupid but I think that cap smells funny... when board pairs it really makes me cringe and want to muck the hand... I don't see many hands that you beat here... that would cap the flop I might be wrong...
Hand 3:
One question, what the fuck are you doing? You had to be on tilt to run this fucking line, you bet with no pair but call when you catch? What's your reasoning here? SB c/c the flop then donks the turn OK so he hit the Q that doesn't mean you're beat, at least you raised the river I guess...
Hand 4:
Umm seems like he was thinking along the lines that he either hit this flop or completely missed it if he hit then he calls if he missed he must fold...
Hand 5:
Umm read dependent but with a K and a T out if he doesn't have a pair he is still calling given some sort of SD...
Hand 6:
LOL... I don't even think I see a flop with this let alone 3 bet it...
Hand 7:
Way are you cold calling? If odds is the case that's thin, but on the flop why are you calling hopes and dreams?
Hand 8:
IMO, the PF 3bet is very thin QTo I have grown to hate the damn thing it seems a lot stronger then it is, you have to figure him for at least a pair with him capping PF and 3betting the flop... maybe AT, A9, AK-AJs in diamonds... when turn pairs he might be to worried you have a boat to raise with a flush... was your hand any good even after you hit the straight?
Hand 9:
Meah, I don't mind taking free flops once an awhile... I don't have to defend every bb I play...
Meah, like I said might be wrong but that’s my 2cents, most my issues come from mentally destructing not mathematics and knowledge of the “correct plays”.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
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Quote:
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hand 7: so do you realize why your cold call is bad in this situation or no?
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I guess not...
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
9) I post this because I think checking there is giving up the hand. If I raise, I often take it down on the flop (as I did) whereas if I checked, he donks the flop with any two and I have to fold. I've really stopped checking in the BB when it folds to the SB and he completes. I almost always raise, with almost any two.
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Could be a leak.
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To be honest, I highly doubt it. I generally give up on the turn if I get a flop call (a flop call almost always means a pair.) so I'm checking behind on turn and dumping the river. At most I've put in 1.5 bet (bigblind+1/2sbpreflopraise+1/2sbflopbet) to win 1 bet. I dont have to win often to be +EV, and I take this a LOT.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
This might not be right but I’ll take a stab...
Hand 1:
Well when you cold called 2 on the flop it's pretty obvious what you have, no deception at all on your hand... I don't really expect you to get called down by any half ass player that is paying any attention...
Hand 2:
umm, 3 betting the BB with KJo, I like to see a flop before I go wild on raising, when he caps meah seems like a set, AK, or A5h or something completely stupid but I think that cap smells funny... when board pairs it really makes me cringe and want to muck the hand... I don't see many hands that you beat here... that would cap the flop I might be wrong...
Hand 3:
One question, what the fuck are you doing? You had to be on tilt to run this fucking line, you bet with no pair but call when you catch? What's your reasoning here? SB c/c the flop then donks the turn OK so he hit the Q that doesn't mean you're beat, at least you raised the river I guess...
Hand 4:
Umm seems like he was thinking along the lines that he either hit this flop or completely missed it if he hit then he calls if he missed he must fold...
Hand 5:
Umm read dependent but with a K and a T out if he doesn't have a pair he is still calling given some sort of SD...
Hand 6:
LOL... I don't even think I see a flop with this let alone 3 bet it...
Hand 7:
Way are you cold calling? If odds is the case that's thin, but on the flop why are you calling hopes and dreams?
Hand 8:
IMO, the PF 3bet is very thin QTo I have grown to hate the damn thing it seems a lot stronger then it is, you have to figure him for at least a pair with him capping PF and 3betting the flop... maybe AT, A9, AK-AJs in diamonds... when turn pairs he might be to worried you have a boat to raise with a flush... was your hand any good even after you hit the straight?
Hand 9:
Meah, I don't mind taking free flops once an awhile... I don't have to defend every bb I play...
Meah, like I said might be wrong but that’s my 2cents, most my issues come from mentally destructing not mathematics and knowledge of the “correct plays”.
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1) Agreed. Buttons raise was completely unexpected and totally tabled my hand. fucker. But I had the nut flush (barring the KQ straighflush) and so I needed to let them have the chance to make a mistake. It sucked, because I thought button was on the FD.
2) This threebet is a little thin (again I overvalue KJo and QJo), but I don't think its too bad in this scenario. As a blind steal he caps here on the button with a really really big range. Hell, I cap there with pretty much any ace (remember jeffs discussion about capping A8o from the button when big blind threebets because it forces HIM to define his hand?) I really felt top pair here was the best hand.
3) My open raise was admittedly pretty bad. I gotta knock that shit off, I know. KJo and QJo are killing me. The turn c/c donkbet line is so transparent to me. He MIGHT have a Q. Chances are he doesn't - so what does raising do? Push him out of a hand where I want him to pay me off. If I raise here, best case he calls there and calls on the river giving me +3 bets. Thats the exact same that I get when I call the turn and raise this river ( I was raising this river no matter what it was, except maybe an ace - the J was nice, but I didn't raise because I hit two pair. I would have raised if it was any other card as well)
So essentially when I'm ahead I win the same but when I'm behind i lose more (he threebets the turn and I call down and lose)
The only thing I consider marginal about this hand was the UTG raise with JQo - a flat out bad idea. I'm only getting called or raised by better hands. Stupid.
4) Yeah. I really don't like doing the raise preflop and fold the flop. They'll REALLY start to take advantage of you if you do this. (They love to c/r the flop on me now -- once you fold to a c/r'd flop, they c/r EVERY piece until you just start threebetting them with complete crap. Its pretty much -EV for all involved.) But what can he POSSIBLY have that I beat here? I just can't justify peeling one off. Any Q is way ahead of me, any draw (like 9t) has way more outs than I do.. Just screwed. You know what it really is? Dont raise UTG with A7o.
5) Yeah he may have me beat. I figure I'm 50/50 here, he might have a K, he might not. I'm generally calling down here (which may be a leak in itself, but who knows - I suck) so I figure a donkbet on the river can't hurt too much. I'm paying the same, its worth a shot. Of course I fold to a threebet.
6) Yeah this is a hand I was essentially losing on purpose. The guy's attempt to steal was just under 50, and he'd taken a stab at me the last five times in a row. As I did this I recalled one of fnord's posts that said something along the lines of, "Sometimes you just have to show the guy who'se stealing from you that you're willing to gamble so he'll leave you alone" - I was intent on showing this down. Giving a free card was a bad idea, but in my head I was already losing this pot. I just wanted to show him what I threebet with, and wanted to get there as cheap as possible.
However, I forgot to uncheck automuck/uncalled and so it was useless.
This type of play is of course negative EV in the strictest sense, but if it gets the guy off my blind, its paying for itself. Maybe. I don't know. Again, I'm losing money.
7) Preflop, I disagree, but I appear to be wrong, though no ones told me why. I'm in great position on the button with a strong flush draw in what has the looks to be a large pot. (I did get 5:1 on the turn afterall) The turn gives me four to the straight - if he has a Q I have a billion and a half outs, and even then I may take it right there on the turn. He's HIGHLY unlikely to threebet me on this board even with AQ, hell, even with QQ, and I can take the check behind on the river when I miss and pay the same as a call down but I get the chance of making an extra bet when I hit. He's sure as hell not putting me on a six there.
8) His line screams "I have a big hand I dont want to let go and I'm trying to push you off" to me. Does 88-AA play it like this? No way. I'd be really really really really surprised if he showed AA here. JJ might. Thats all I can think of. To me it screams "I have AK, AQ, AJ, something like that, and I missed, so I'm going to try and represent a monster, but I don't have the experience and/or balls to properly do so" (which would be bet/call flop, check/raise turn line. )
Whether I won the hand or not is irrelevant to the point of the discussion, thats why none of them have results.
9) This isn't a "defense" per-se, but I guess it is a pre-emptive strike. villain will often (by which I mean, oh, practically every time) complete the SB and lead out the flop with any two cards. Its not a bad move - its really a passive aggressive steal that works a LOT.
Consider this my version of the rippy. I miss the flop a LOT, but I oftentake this flop right there (Id wager at least 5 out of 7 times), merely because I've represented a K or an A preflop. But sometimes I flop something hard, and villain never sees it coming, and I take even more. And if villain calls the flop, I'm out of dodge.
Preflop: I post the BB, 1/2 BB, and then raise to make it a full BB. Opponent has put in a BB and a half just to see a flop. On the flop I invest a half a bet to win a bet, a total of 1.5 bets to win a bet. I don't have to take this often, and I win this OFTEN.
Please, please, please, feel free to disagree. I'm losing money (or more accurately, not making money but not losing money either) over the last 30k, so I'm doing something wrong.
I think my blind defense / stealing is probably among my biggest problems.
I also need to fucking fold KJo and QJo from every position.
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
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i skimmed the other input, but here's what i think.
1) i would call the turn. check/raise vs aggressive. bet/* vs passive.
2) i sometimes fold this turn cuz of the flush draw.
3) looks good to me. i fold preflop sometimes.
4) fold preflop. otherwise, depending on who it is, i may peel the flop and see if they donk again.
5) why did you donk the river?
6) meh
7) i really don't like that flop call (i fold). you're lucky both players after you folded.
8) that river saved your ass. this hand looks like tilt to me.
9) meh
the stats don't look outta line, although i think your folded to BB steal a bit high.
another big problem i see with this post. where are all the reads???
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
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I see, I think you are getting exploited a lot on the turn due to the fact you tend to bet/fold relatively easily compared to some of the other players, I mean I bet fold as well, however I do a little reasoning before hand... what are my odds if i get raised to call that bet? your first bet already went into the pot it is not yours so really you are wondering if you have odds to call 1 bet with 2 extra bets in the pot from when you started the turn... if you do have odds are all your outs clean or would they often get you a 2nd best hand, shit like that, sometimes just calling here and folding the river unimproved will keep them from attempting to c/r on a complete steel obviously you need to call the river bet once and awhile to keep them from thinking they can just fire another barrel...
I guess what I am trying to get at is possibly that you know "how to play" but you self-destruct mentally when you start running bad and take some bad beats... So, try to not think about anything other then ohh well I played that right I’ll win next time, reinsure yourself you are playing ok and it is not in your control… I have found if I think about the outs he hit or the incorrect odds he just drew to a runner runner with then I rend to play worse, if I just think well I played that good nothing I could do and tell the donk nice hand or something reinsuring his play was ok, then I can move on easily and get him next time… if I start thinking OMG HE”S FUCKING IDIOT BLAH BLAH, then it goes down hill from there…
I want you the next time you play poker to only talk positively about hands, nothing negative… If you say anything negative OTHER then you miss played a hand then you owe me $5 for each occurrence, and I will keep tally…
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
To be honest, I highly doubt it. I generally give up on the turn if I get a flop call (a flop call almost always means a pair.) so I'm checking behind on turn and dumping the river. At most I've put in 1.5 bet (bigblind+1/2sbpreflopraise+1/2sbflopbet) to win 1 bet. I dont have to win often to be +EV, and I take this a LOT.
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Quote:
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There are a few very choice places where I will coldcall. I dont see how this is a "bad" cold call... by threebetting, A) I'm probably behind, B) I knock out the SB/BB, killing my FD odds. I dont want them out.
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You asked for help, I gave it to you. Sometimes I can't explain the reasoning behind every scenario. why shouldn't you could call? I dunno...Because its bad??? Just because I can't explain it doesnt make it right. Cold Calling in 6 max (let alone full ring) is something that completely sucks monkey balls, and there are literaly only like 3 hands that I do it with. And Axs isn't one of them... Why wouldn't you call any two suited in that situation then? More often than not your Ace is dominated so you are only going to win a small pot or lose a big one if an Ace hits. So are you saying your Ace high flush wins you that many more flushes than a non-Ace high flush? How often do you win flush over flush? I don't remember too many occurances. Secondly, if your ace high flush is worth it so much over a non ace high flush, doesn't this reduce the chance of you hitting your flush because of 2 less diamond outs? I'm going down the slippery slope that I'm trying to get you to realize. You only hit your flush 6% of the time overall, so you can't play it to hit backdoor flush and straight draws after cold calling preflop and expect to make any money with it.
This is by no means a shot at you, as you know I think you play good, but my results don't lie. I wouldn't be telling you these things if I wasn't confident that I know what the correct play is. I make my living ALWAYS knowing what the correct play (at least within a short distance if I'm off).
Raising the BB with any two when the SB is going to limp is asking for trouble. Why? Because you are putting more money in the hand with the worst hand not even knowing what three cards are going to come on the flop. Preset plays are bad, and frankly with shitty hands that I couldn't defend a steal with (67o is one of them) I really don't want to put any more of my money into the pot than I have to. Not to mention you are last to act in this scenario which gives you a major advantage over him already.
I am raising more from the BB in non-defense situations. But those raises are for VALUE, not to increase my chance of taking down the pot. Its about money won, not pots won. I can show you sessions where I've won 49% of flops I've seen, and still managed to be down 10 BB over 1000 hands...
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
i skimmed the other input, but here's what i think.
1) i would call the turn. check/raise vs aggressive. bet/* vs passive.
2) i sometimes fold this turn cuz of the flush draw.
3) looks good to me. i fold preflop sometimes.
4) fold preflop. otherwise, depending on who it is, i may peel the flop and see if they donk again.
5) why did you donk the river?
6) meh
7) i really don't like that flop call (i fold). you're lucky both players after you folded.
8) that river saved your ass. this hand looks like tilt to me.
9) meh
the stats don't look outta line, although i think your folded to BB steal a bit high.
another big problem i see with this post. where are all the reads???
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shit, the reads were in the text file with the raw hand history, when I converted and pasted in here I must have forgot them. I know the two people I pulled blind defense lines on were really really big blind stealers. Jeff said above "id only do this against a greater than 45% att to steal" and yeah, he was 43% i think. Just gave me a laugh.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
I want you the next time you play poker to only talk positively about hands, nothing negative… If you say anything negative OTHER then you miss played a hand then you owe me $5 for each occurrence, and I will keep tally… 
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Deal, as long as you do the same. Thats actually a damned good idea.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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And hand 8 since like three people have thought I was toast until the river, villain has AKo UI.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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I struggle at the 10/20 6 max game. I think I am about break even through 21K hands, so...
Quit bragging.
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Poker is freedom
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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I'll try not to repeat what others have said.
1. Your VP and PFR overall numbers look good, but the VP position range (in UTG, MP, CO, Buttton) seems tight togther. For example, at 23/16 I'm surprised your UTG is as high as 19 and your button is as low as 25.
I have a 30VP and I'm 20 at UTG...almost the same as you.
I could be way off here (and folks please correct me) but I would think a 23VP player would have a range like
17 UTG
19 MP
22 CO
27 Button
Am I off folks??
2. Your went to showdown in these positions seems high
43, 42, 45, 45.......
I wonder what your aggression stats are by street? Your Pre-flop play looks good, but you seem to be hanging in too the river too much.
Are you playing the flop and river aggressively enough, and then making fold/go decisions from there, or are you calling down lots. or something else?
I'm guessing there must be a few post-flop leaks that are causing these high WtSD numbers. I bet once you get that sorted you'll be 1.5+BB per 100.
Any thoughts..
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ArcticKnight
1. Your VP and PFR overall numbers look good, but the VP position range (in UTG, MP, CO, Buttton) seems tight togther. For example, at 23/16 I'm surprised your UTG is as high as 19 and your button is as low as 25.
I have a 30VP and I'm 20 at UTG...almost the same as you.
I could be way off here (and folks please correct me) but I would think a 23VP player would have a range like
17 UTG
19 MP
22 CO
27 Button
Am I off folks??
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Pretty much what I was getting at.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Hmmm... Well do you mean something like this...
Of course this is 3/6 stuff but I was wondering if those are the general ranges you're talking about... My Total VP$IP is 21.99 over this sample if you want that...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokerfanatic
Hmmm... Well do you mean something like this...
Of course this is 3/6 stuff but I was wondering if those are the general ranges you're talking about... My Total VP$IP is 21.99 over this sample if you want that...

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Yes, that's the kind of range I was thinking.
I guess, though, I should give a second thought about my comments about the WTSD stats outside of the blinds being high. Yours are higher than Euphoricism's, and mine are high as well.
Jeff and others, what's your thought on the WTSD #s outside of the blinds. Is there a too-high/too- low flag that should cause concern, or is it more about the gap between went TSD and won at SD?
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I'm pretty happy....
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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LOL, articknight, I see you open limp 8% of your hands UTG???? What are you doing that for? Actually, looks like you are running pretty good there what do you limp UTG?
Notice I've open limped .05% of my hands UTG, thats got to be like only once.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
LOL, articknight, I see you open limp 8% of your hands UTG???? What are you doing that for? Actually, looks like you are running pretty good there what do you limp UTG?
Notice I've open limped .05% of my hands UTG, thats got to be like only once.
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mines 1.25% I do it more then I should, sometimes it actually will isolate you when a raise wont it's weird, I have had tables that at least one person would always cold call my UTG raise I limped once and everyone folded other then bb who folded to my flop auto bet it was like they all thought I had a monster since I had been raising so much I guess...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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saywhat2
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Straight
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 113
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How are you getting the poker tracker screens in here? I cant see how to do it. Are you doing a print screen?
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
LOL, articknight, I see you open limp 8% of your hands UTG???? What are you doing that for? Actually, looks like you are running pretty good there what do you limp UTG?
Notice I've open limped .05% of my hands UTG, thats got to be like only once.
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I'll post some data later tonight...
Jeff, I love the CO and button #s. you have.....I always thought you were a master of the blind steal from the CO.....looks like I was right. Your play in the CO gives you two buttons every lap, you crafty snake.......lol
Later
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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To Jeff et al…….My UTG play…..
I certainly can’t defend it as proper, but here’s what’s up.
Of the 1260 hands UTG 6max
154 open raised – profit $4202
100 limped – profit $1463
the hands I’m limping UTG
22-66 (77 sometimes)
A2s – A8s
That’s about 85% of them
Some others are goofy things like, J10s, 98s, K9s, but they are 1 offs.
Now, I know that I should be folding down almost all hands above, but I guess the reason I’m not is that I have not been punished yet for playing this way. In fact, I’m up $1400 more than I would be if I had folded. (can’t say what the results would be if I raised?)
I have been punished for playing weak holdings out of the blinds, and have stopped that for the most part, but I’m hard pressed to change my play here while I’m still running good.
I should add that I am running gooooooood. I mean I’m 30/15 (but 27/15) of late, and my aggression numbers are not high:
Flop 1.62
Turn 1.74
River 1.38
I don’t consider my postflop play as great. As such, I should NOT be at the winrate I am, but the good point is I’m aware enough to realize that I’m in for a bad swing backwards unless I continue my progression towards 26/18 or so, and plug some leaks. Between work and travel, and I hardly played in the last couple of weeks. But this time has given me a chance to review my play.
A question I for anyone out there,,,,,,, How can I bring myself to fold the low pairs and weak suited Aces UTG, when I am getting paid off.? I have been fortunate to find some loose tables, and often have 3 players at 45-50VP and above, and I want to get into these hands, even if it means not playing optimum, as above. Any advice?
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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I'm not going to be the one to tell you you play 'bad', as well, I'm not entirely sold on the whole concept of "gotta be around 23/15 to win!" However, I will say, as you know, most people disagree with limping UTG at all. If you cut out the UTG limping (and as such folded most of the hands you limp UTG with) you'd be another 23/15 like the rest of us.
Not to say thats "better" (because I'm a 23/15 and losing my ass ;]).
I don't think you'll hear any of us telling you that youre playing wrong, or even playing sub-optimally. However, we will tell you you're in for variance hell when your luck turns. As if 23/15 variance wasn't enough. I want to kill myself sometimes ;p
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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I dont disagree with it, but its definately not something I do a lot, but there are some tables where you can limp PP's UTG. Suited aces on the other hand Im not sure about. I like to play these hands I just prefer to be in position to get full effectiveness of my draw + 1/2 the "Oh shit an ace flops what do I do" siutations.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
I'm not going to be the one to tell you you play 'bad', as well, I'm not entirely sold on the whole concept of "gotta be around 23/15 to win!" However, I will say, as you know, most people disagree with limping UTG at all. If you cut out the UTG limping (and as such folded most of the hands you limp UTG with) you'd be another 23/15 like the rest of us.
Not to say thats "better" (because I'm a 23/15 and losing my ass ;]).
I don't think you'll hear any of us telling you that youre playing wrong, or even playing sub-optimally. However, we will tell you you're in for variance hell when your luck turns. As if 23/15 variance wasn't enough. I want to kill myself sometimes ;p
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I know it's wrong...Just wonder if I should stop now or wait til I see that it's not paying off anymore (PS. At tighter tables, I'm laying these down).
I have often wondered if my 30/15 play (limping UTG, cold calling about 1% of the time now) is just goofy enough to get enough extra action and a fishy table image that allows me make up for some errors that a 23/18 or so just can't pull off.
My winrate in UTG is good, and when I raise UTG I get action.
On the other hand, when I see 20/15 raise UTG, and watch the whole table fold because it's his 1st UTG action in who knows how long, I wonder....another AA,KK, QQ, AK .... that only scooped the blinds.
At this point in my game, I don't feel I can play the AG part of TAG like guys like Jeff and others do. And believe me, I watch lots of his play from the sidelines. Me thinks that when he and his Op both miss the flop, Jeff takes down that pot 2/3 of the time. I'm just not there.
I like mixing it up, and can shift from an overly passive play post-flop on a hand to overly agressive play the next hand, and it really seems to work for me well as long as I'm not chasing small or hopeless pots, and as long as I can let go of big hands when I know I'm beat.
I do have a thought on cold-calling that is against te grain..
Cold-call.....blah...I don't think cold calling 1% of time is a leak for a 30VP player. Cold-calling loose and weak players is a MAJOR leak. Cold-alling TAGS occosaionaly is plain old annoying fun..lol
Within a certain hand range, cold-calling a TAG after he raises a limper just drives the TAG nuts. I know by playing, and I know by reading forums that TAG's hate a cold-caller having position on him. Yet, we all hear that Cold-calling is awful. Well sure it's awful FOR the TAG to cold-call, but AGAINST the TAG is it really that bad of a play to mix in some cold-calls (especially if you are suited and connected) and don't mind that you are keeping the blinds in?
Example...loose UTG limps, MP calls, CO (TAG) raises, I'm on the button with J10s and I cold-call.....
I don't want to fold my hand - it could be 5 way and I don't want to 3 bet and go heads up with hand that plays better multiway and is vulnerable to overcards.
TAGS will fold or 3 bet this J10s...how is that +EV.
Anyway..by for now. In a hockey tourney and I'm off to another game.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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I don't disagree with cold-calling, as long as its with the right hands. Euph cold calling with A8s is so much more nastier than coldcalling with JTs, T9s, or even 76s for that matter. I'm bound to cold call some hands in that situation too articknight, probably any pocketpair and T9s+ and QTs+ and maybe even KTs if the blinds are going to come along.
About the UTG limping, if I'm not raising those hands you mentioned, then I'm folding. I raise 55+ UTG and ATs (maybe A9s if I'm going to gamble), ATo (and feel dirty every time), KQo and JTs as well but again its entirely up to the table. Sometimes I'll catch a hanger and raise with KJo UTG but I hate it when I do. Probably the best limping UTG hands are your low-mid pocket pairs. I just find they play much easier when I raise, I'll bet/fold the turn and check/call the river HU but otherwise give it up on the turn. Suited baby aces are so friggin annoying to play, especially OOP. You hardly ever get the max out of your hand and you're winning small pots and losing big ones when your flush doesnt hit. I'll habitually continuation-limp preflop with 22 after an UTG limper, similar with A6s or so.
Its all up to preference. i was going to tell you you are running good (like 3.5 bb/100?) and anything over 2 bb/100 is killing the game. I even expect to drop some and i don't think I've been running the best. As long as you have intelligence to know you have been running hot and not get all freaked out by dropping 150 BB in like 2 days, then great. But, I would start fixing leaks ASAP (like normal) because you don't know what could happen tomorrow.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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ArcticKnight
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Flush
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: golf course
Posts: 416
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
I don't disagree with cold-calling, as long as its with the right hands. Euph cold calling with A8s is so much more nastier than coldcalling with JTs, T9s, or even 76s for that matter. I'm bound to cold call some hands in that situation too articknight, probably any pocketpair and T9s+ and QTs+ and maybe even KTs if the blinds are going to come along.
About the UTG limping, if I'm not raising those hands you mentioned, then I'm folding. I raise 55+ UTG and ATs (maybe A9s if I'm going to gamble), ATo (and feel dirty every time), KQo and JTs as well but again its entirely up to the table. Sometimes I'll catch a hanger and raise with KJo UTG but I hate it when I do. Probably the best limping UTG hands are your low-mid pocket pairs. I just find they play much easier when I raise, I'll bet/fold the turn and check/call the river HU but otherwise give it up on the turn. Suited baby aces are so friggin annoying to play, especially OOP. You hardly ever get the max out of your hand and you're winning small pots and losing big ones when your flush doesnt hit. I'll habitually continuation-limp preflop with 22 after an UTG limper, similar with A6s or so.
Its all up to preference. i was going to tell you you are running good (like 3.5 bb/100?) and anything over 2 bb/100 is killing the game. I even expect to drop some and i don't think I've been running the best. As long as you have intelligence to know you have been running hot and not get all freaked out by dropping 150 BB in like 2 days, then great. But, I would start fixing leaks ASAP (like normal) because you don't know what could happen tomorrow.
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Thanks Jeff. Good points and thoughtful response.
I have not played for maybe two-weeks now, and I have few things to focus on when I start up again.
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Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........
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