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Smooth-calling preflop heads-up: Opinions?

  
 
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arkitekton
Old 06-30-2006, 12:38 PM     Post subject: Smooth-calling preflop heads-up: Opinions? #1 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
arkitekton
These 2 hands came on the same session. I like to pound away as much as the next guy (ahem), but it sometimes feels like that's not the best approach

old'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with A, A.
Hero raises, 5 folds, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K, 7, 8 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 7 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, Hero calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 2 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

SECOND HAND:

Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K, K.
UTG raises, 7 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5, A, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (5.25 BB) A (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB


Thoughts? Umbrage?
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6high
Old 06-30-2006, 07:17 PM #2 (permalink)  
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6high
Hand 1. The preflop smoothcall is fine once in a while. As you can stand to make the 1sb back most of the time.

I think you should cap the turn.

Hand 2. I hate the preflop call and I think you should bet the river.
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midas06
Old 06-30-2006, 11:08 PM #3 (permalink)  
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midas06
It's alright if you're in position
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arkitekton
Old 07-01-2006, 09:50 AM #4 (permalink)  
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arkitekton
Quote:
Hand 1. The preflop smoothcall is fine once in a while. As you can stand to make the 1sb back most of the time.

I think you should cap the turn.
ROFL--Believe me, I wanted to! I would up giving villain credit for being somewhat sane. I mean, given that I raised from ep1, got check raised on the flop, and STILL raised him on the turn, could I have LESS than AK (and it wouldn't make sense for me to even raise the turn on this betting with just AK)? Therefore, of course, he should be better than AK to bet the way he's betting, and "has" to have, at least, an unlikely AA or, most likely, KK--in which latter case I'm dead.

Quote:
Hand 2. I hate the preflop call and I think you should bet the river.
There aren't any arguments in these assertions to which I can usefully respond.
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thenonsequitur
Old 07-01-2006, 08:38 PM #5 (permalink)  
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thenonsequitur
I agree with 6high's statement. I may have different arguments that him, but here are mine:

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6high
Hand 2. I hate the preflop call
You are OOP, so you are unlikely to make up the value you lose. You may have trouble determining when you can afford to make up the bet. Also because you are OOP, your opponent may try to get tricky with extra bets if you are aggressive preflop and he flops top pair, but is more likely to just play straightforward if you play passive preflop, so you may be losing extra value there too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6high
and I think you should bet the river.
Because of the number of draws on the board that didn't improve on the river, and because of the second ace that fell, betting out the river would be a WA/WB move. So I don't mind donking the river. But given the way you played the rest of the hand, I think I prefer a check/call either to induce a bluff from a worse hand and to see a cheap showdown against a better hand. I guess which move you like better depends upon how aggressive your opponent is.
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6high
Old 07-02-2006, 03:49 AM #6 (permalink)  
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6high
Quote:
Originally Posted by arkitekton
Quote:
Hand 1. The preflop smoothcall is fine once in a while. As you can stand to make the 1sb back most of the time.

I think you should cap the turn.
ROFL--Believe me, I wanted to! I would up giving villain credit for being somewhat sane. I mean, given that I raised from ep1, got check raised on the flop, and STILL raised him on the turn, could I have LESS than AK (and it wouldn't make sense for me to even raise the turn on this betting with just AK)? Therefore, of course, he should be better than AK to bet the way he's betting, and "has" to have, at least, an unlikely AA or, most likely, KK--in which latter case I'm dead.
He is statistically more likely to have AK than any other hand here.
KQ, AA and KK are the other options. Even if you rule out KQ completely, you're still twice as likely to be ahead.

Quote:
Quote:
Hand 2. I hate the preflop call and I think you should bet the river.
There aren't any arguments in these assertions to which I can usefully respond.
Being OOP, you'll be unable to make up the lost preflop revenue postflop. You may have lost out on the majority of 2sb (1BB) preflop if he has a hand like AK, QQ, JJ or TT.

As for postflop, the river A just makes it less likely for him to hold an Ace and therefore he will hold a worse hand than yours the majority of the time. Considering you've been calling since the flop, he will most often check behind his worse hands and bet his better ones. So unless you can trust your read and are check/folding, you should be betting this river. There's too much value not to.
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