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"Small Stakes" by Sklansky and Miller
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fbkaiser
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08-31-2010, 05:40 PM
Post subject: "Small Stakes" by Sklansky and Miller
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#1 (permalink)
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High Card
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4
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I recently saw a site that analyized this book hand by hand. But I can't find it now.
Does anybody know it?
ty,
Kaiser
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celtic123
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: **Officially**The worst poster on FTR
Posts: 708
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It might be on the 2+2 site, but I couldnt be sure
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scarface_0001
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One Pair
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 20
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This is the link to Jim Brier's Cardplayer articles (Maximizing SSH winnings):
Jim Brier - Poker Authors, Writers and Contributors - CardPlayer.com
In only 6 articles Jim Brier demonstrates that Small Stakes Hold'em is trash (like all Skalansky's books are)
The hand examples from his articles contain the main ideas of the book and he disagrees with almost all hand examples. Therefore he disagrees with the main ideas from the book.
If you read SSH and then read Jim Brier's articles you will want to throw the book in the trash.
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Chopper
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Posts: 4,255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarface_0001
This is the link to Jim Brier's Cardplayer articles (Maximizing SSH winnings):
Jim Brier - Poker Authors, Writers and Contributors - CardPlayer.com
In only 6 articles Jim Brier demonstrates that Small Stakes Hold'em is trash (like all Skalansky's books are)
The hand examples from his articles contain the main ideas of the book and he disagrees with almost all hand examples. Therefore he disagrees with the main ideas from the book.
If you read SSH and then read Jim Brier's articles you will want to throw the book in the trash.
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I am afraid I disagree that Miller/Sklansky books are trash. Are they aimed at beginners? yes. Are they teaching you to lose the minimum? Not really; they are teaching you to win the maximum from players that overplay marginal holdings in big pots.....ie beginners and small stakes live players.
I only read his first article before I started disagreeing with your post. First, he mostly agrees with Miller/Sklansky in his comments of HHs. He doesnt in any way make me fell that SSHE books are "trash."
And where he disagrees, I think he misses a major point. For instance, he says that it is correct to call Qh7h with mid pair and a redraw instead of raising because most players wont bet an unimproved AK into a field of 4. That may be true, but that doesnt mean you dont raise, either. You raise to kick out the crap behind you that may be drawing to gutshots, 3 clean outs, etc. You thereby improve your chances of winning a showdown. You may have the best hand, but arent happy about a 7. But, you will improve to 2pr/trips 20% of the time and will most certainly overtake the overpair.....and probably gain action from KK type hands. That's why you raise. It has very little to do with being best currently. That is one of the biggest misconceptions of LHE vs NL. LHE is about potential hands improving to best hands, like stud and/or PLO games. Very seldom does, and should, the best TP hand hold up by the river against a field of 4.
Again, that is why you protect your hands with raises to shut out others. You know you arent likely to improve, but want to help yourself get to sd with as few players as possible, so the times your 7 is best, you drag a nice pot.
Read up on relative position and protecting your hand before denouncing some fundamentally great books. And, always think critically of ANYONE you are reading.... even me. That's the only way you learn.
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LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.
Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
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scarface_0001
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One Pair
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 20
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I was being sarcastic 
It seems that Jim Brier doesn't understand poker too well:
"Second, all of this raising may drive out other hands, which benefits the guy with the best hand at your expense."
Yes, if your opponent has the best hand, raising benefits him. But it also benefits you. So if you can drive out hands you should raise even though raising benefits your opponent too.
"This is another situation in which it is assumed that a typical small-stakes player will bet into a big field with an unimproved A-K."
No, it isn't assumed this. Raising may be the best play even if you 100% know that you don't have the best hand.
"Hand No. 3: You have the 8c 6c on the button. Three players limp in, you limp, the small blind calls, and the big blind checks. The flop is Jc 9c 4d, giving you a flush draw. The small blind checks. The big blind bets and two of the three limpers call. What should you do?
Book Answer: Raise. This is a turn problem, so the book provides no explanation.
My Thoughts: Raising is not at all clear. You are getting 9-to-1 on your flush draw and have an easy call. You have no other outs but your flush draw, and a raise might drive out opponents. By raising, you give one of your opponents the opportunity to three-bet, further increasing your cost to draw and increasing the likelihood of eliminating opponents, which is not desirable when you are drawing."
If you raise probably the bettor will only call and the other players will also call. If all 3 opponents will call (very likely in a loose game) your raise is for value. You need to win more than 25% of the time to make the raise the best play. It seems that Jim Brier doesn't know you can raise on the flop for value with a flush draw. And if all oppponents check to you on the turn you can take a free card because you also have position. Clear raise for me.
He doesn't like to raise ATs from the blinds in multi-way pot because is difficult to play OOP. Probably he is the type of player who would also limp/check with AK because AK is just a drawing hand.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Are they aimed at beginners? yes.
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Small Stakes Hold'em today is probably aimed at beginners. But in 2004 it was a very advanced book.
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KoRnholio
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 2,165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarface_0001
Small Stakes Hold'em today is probably aimed at beginners. But in 2004 it was a very advanced book.
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I don't know that "advanced" is the word. It was much more applicable to the (small stakes) games at the time, yes.
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Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
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scarface_0001
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One Pair
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 20
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What's considered advanced in 2010 is not similar to what was considered advanced in 2004 or in 1990.
Harrington on Hold'em today is considered a beginner book (and it is). But I don't think it was considered a beginner book in 2004 or 2005.
In 2004 a lot of small stakes limit players were limping AK in multiway pots because it was just "a drawing hand".
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fbkaiser
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High Card
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4
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A belated ty to all for the replies.
Kaiser
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Trons
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scarface_0001
"Hand No. 3: You have the 8c 6c on the button. Three players limp in, you limp, the small blind calls, and the big blind checks. The flop is Jc 9c 4d, giving you a flush draw. The small blind checks. The big blind bets and two of the three limpers call. What should you do?
Book Answer: Raise. This is a turn problem, so the book provides no explanation.
My Thoughts: Raising is not at all clear. You are getting 9-to-1 on your flush draw and have an easy call. You have no other outs but your flush draw, and a raise might drive out opponents. By raising, you give one of your opponents the opportunity to three-bet, further increasing your cost to draw and increasing the likelihood of eliminating opponents, which is not desirable when you are drawing."
If you raise probably the bettor will only call and the other players will also call. If all 3 opponents will call (very likely in a loose game) your raise is for value. You need to win more than 25% of the time to make the raise the best play. It seems that Jim Brier doesn't know you can raise on the flop for value with a flush draw. And if all oppponents check to you on the turn you can take a free card because you also have position. Clear raise for me.
He doesn't like to raise ATs from the blinds in multi-way pot because is difficult to play OOP. Probably he is the type of player who would also limp/check with AK because AK is just a drawing hand.
Small Stakes Hold'em today is probably aimed at beginners. But in 2004 it was a very advanced book.
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There was another aspect to the raise, with the FD, from the button, that, IIRC, was basically, by raising, even if the BB raises, you cap, this makes it much more likely the BB will check the turn giving you the chance to check back if you don't hit and you can then fold the river if unimproved. If I remember the idea and math correctly, this is the same as calling the flop and subsequent turn bet, but pays off when the BB does not re-raise you, allowing you to check the flop unimproved and see the river for the 1 additional SB you put in on the flop. This is based on position, and not something you would want to do when OOP.
SSH was specifically for beginners, teaching them how to capitalize against fish in LLHE games. Anybody who thinks it is, or was, trash, should talk to the people who learned from that book and built a BR playing LLHE.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Trons is right!
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Jsttrons
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Trons
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3-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
There was another aspect to the raise, with the FD, from the button, that, IIRC, was basically, by raising, even if the BB raises, you cap, this makes it much more likely the BB will check the turn giving you the chance to check back if you don't hit and you can then fold the river if unimproved. If I remember the idea and math correctly, this is the same as calling the flop and subsequent turn bet, but pays off when the BB does not re-raise you, allowing you to check the flop unimproved and see the river for the 1 additional SB you put in on the flop. This is based on position, and not something you would want to do when OOP.
SSH was specifically for beginners, teaching them how to capitalize against fish in LLHE games. Anybody who thinks it is, or was, trash, should talk to the people who learned from that book and built a BR playing LLHE.
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You are completely right. I learned from that book and built a BR using the ideas.
I think the problem with a lot of what is said, is that it doesn't apply. SSHE was about maximizing your profit when playing. It wasn't about winning every hand. It dealt with, when in this situation (a drawing hand for example,) if you do this, you maximize your profit for this reason, and the math supports it.
LLHE is a tough game because you can't make the big score. You have to obtain your money a little at a time. If you can improve the rate your gain, even slightly, you're doing better then then the fish out there. To say the book was "advanced" back then or that it's "beginner" now, is not accurate. The book is based on the math and the math doesn't lie.
Now, having said that, your opponents may have changed their play style drastically since the book came out in which case, you'd have to be flexible, but the concepts are still the same...ie: If you do this, in this position, you stand to make more then not doing this, and the reason is: A>B and B>C, then A>C. Math has always worked that way.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Trons is right!
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Jsttrons
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