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Anosmic
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09-12-2006, 10:42 AM
Post subject: Small PPs in big pots
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#1 (permalink)
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Full House
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Sweden
Posts: 999
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I had the situation earlier today where I was holding 33 in SB. It got raised and 3-bet by the time it came to me and I thought for a bit and junked.
I believed that I would have three others in the pot (with my call it would be 12 small bets) offering me 3-1 on a 8-1 shot. So I have to extract quite a bet of post-flop value.
I considered calling because the chances of not having action on later streets is slim.
Obviously a three came up on the flop and in the end a pair of pocket queens took down the $50 pot.
I'm trying to convince myself that this was the right call.
And after my day of suckines (down over $150 at $2/4 aaaargh) I could have done with that pot...
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chimpgo
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 7
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i dont know - i think this is an easy fold for me
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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You need 5-1 preflop to make any Pocket Pair +EV to call. If you weren't getting 5-1, then its an easy fold. If you were getting 5-1, then you should have called. Fairly simple.
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Kessler
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 117
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Yep, I muck 33 in that scenario. You want to see a cheap flop and check raise the turn with a flopped set. If you miss (which you will usually do) you paid too much pre-flop.
-Kes
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If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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Set it, and FORGET it!
(been waiting to do that for a while)
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Set it, and FORGET it!
(been waiting to do that for a while)
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Isn't it: "set it, or forget it?
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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holdin2
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Flush
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 279
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Set it, and FORGET it!
(been waiting to do that for a while)
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Isn't it: "set it, or forget it? |
BURN! Guess he should have waited a wee bit longer to do that. LOL. Very funny though.
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sndp
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Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Posts: 84
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I think the only thing that made you wanna post this is the fact that the 3 showed up on the flop.
You can't let your hindsight guide the way you play your hands.
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arkitekton
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Flush
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: canada
Posts: 269
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Quote:
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BURN! Guess he should have waited a wee bit longer to do that. LOL. Very funny though.
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Yeah--don't you hate that, when somebody fucks up a perfectly good joke, ruining it for all of us, and embarrassing the hell out himself in the process? I'd be surprised if he ever posted here again, frankly.
So, with your 33 you're getting 9.5 to 2.5. You'll need to get another 15.5 or so small bets into the pot just to break even, and that's if nobody caps preflop. Four to a flop bet, Three to a check raised turn, and heads up on the river (which is a decent amount of action) = 4 + 12 + 2 minus your contributions equals about 13 small bets. When you include the possibility of a preflop cap reducing your implied odds further, folding preflop looks right.
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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Odds of hitting are about 7.5:1. My guideline for small pairs needing to hit trips is 5:1 pot odds or better against a two bet. The rest you will almost definitely make up in implied odds on later rounds when you hit.
In the BB, I want at least two oppoenents in a raised pot (without one of them being the SB, I like to discount the SB to help acount for the rake an low stakes)
In the SB, I want at least three oppenents in a raised pot (not counting on the BB calling too... sometimes he will, sometimes he won't... the extra bet you will get from when he does call will help account for the rake).
In an unraised pot, I want at least 5 limpers (played this way in the blinds or in late position)
Bottom like, at leat 5:1 pot not including the SB or counting on the BB calling a raise after you.
Anytime it is three bet, it will be a little tougher to get the nessecary implied odds even if you do have the 5:1 odds preflop. You will need to collect at least 3-4 big bets post flop to get there (tougher than 2 big bets against a 2-bet preflop). So, I would probably only call the 3-bet with at least 5:1 pot odds AND with opponents that are a little overly agressive post flop and definitely go to far after the flop.
(Your situation was 3:1 pre-flop, easy fold and don't look back)
PS I know I keep harping on the rake discount, but at the lower limits, the rake is a killer, and I think that not considering it's effects when thinking about pot odds at the lower limits is a mistake.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DaNutsInYoEye
Quote:
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Originally Posted by euphoricism
Set it, and FORGET it!
(been waiting to do that for a while)
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Isn't it: "set it, or forget it? |
In poker yes, but not with the amazing Showtime Rotisserie
Is it sad when I see "small PP in big pots" the first thing I think of is Ron Popiel
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NWNewell
Odds of hitting are about 7.5:1. My guideline for small pairs needing to hit trips is 5:1 pot odds or better against a two bet. The rest you will almost definitely make up in implied odds on later rounds when you hit.
In the BB, I want at least two oppoenents in a raised pot (without one of them being the SB, I like to discount the SB to help acount for the rake an low stakes)
In the SB, I want at least three oppenents in a raised pot (not counting on the BB calling too... sometimes he will, sometimes he won't... the extra bet you will get from when he does call will help account for the rake).
In an unraised pot, I want at least 5 limpers (played this way in the blinds or in late position)
Bottom like, at leat 5:1 pot not including the SB or counting on the BB calling a raise after you.
Anytime it is three bet, it will be a little tougher to get the nessecary implied odds even if you do have the 5:1 odds preflop. You will need to collect at least 3-4 big bets post flop to get there (tougher than 2 big bets against a 2-bet preflop). So, I would probably only call the 3-bet with at least 5:1 pot odds AND with opponents that are a little overly agressive post flop and definitely go to far after the flop.
(Your situation was 3:1 pre-flop, easy fold and don't look back)
PS I know I keep harping on the rake discount, but at the lower limits, the rake is a killer, and I think that not considering it's effects when thinking about pot odds at the lower limits is a mistake.
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NH.
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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[quote="elipsesjeff"][quote="NWNewell"]
blah, blah, blah Didn't mean to regurgitate your post, elipsesjeff... missed it when I was scanning through the replies.... lol.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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[QUOTE="NWNewell"][quote="elipsesjeff"]
Quote:
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Originally Posted by NWNewell
blah, blah, blah Didn't mean to regurgitate your post, elipsesjeff... missed it when I was scanning through the replies.... lol. |
not what i was referring to. It was a well written reply.
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