www.flopturnriver.com

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Already Registered? Username: Password: Remember Forgot Password
Tweet

Slow playing sets

LinkBack

Thread Tools

Display Modes

Shark Bait

08-17-2005, 05:22 PM Post subject: Slow playing sets

#1 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

This is a topic where I find myself disagreeing with a lot of people here. I used to be the kind of person that would only slow play a straight, flush or better. But after getting beat badly by people slow playing their sets, I tried playing that game and I believe I'm doing much better because of it.

The problem most people have with this is that letting someone see the turn for free or only 1 bet when you could have raised to make it 2 bets to them may give them a draw. Then they will pay to see the river, when they may have folded on the flop.

My arguments for this are:
1. sets often improve to a boat. Letting someone catch a straight draw when you've made a boat is great, especially when they make their straight.
2. The number of times that someone will complete a runner runner draw against a set is probably so low that it would not overcome the increased amount made by the slow play.
3. Most times that your set is beaten, it doesn't matter if you had slow played it or bet/raised on the flop. The other player would have called anyway. The only time you're going to get people out of the hand is when there is a bet before you and people still to act. Then a raise would probably get the people after you to fold. If you are last to act and the first to act bets and everyone has called, a raise will not get anyone to fold. Instead, everyone will call the raise and check it to you on the turn, where they will call your bet if they have a draw, just the same as if you had slow played it, just less money in the pot.

So I've been keeping track of when I lose with a set that I've slow played. What I've found is that I very rarely would have won if I hadn't slow played. Here are some examples:

Hand 1
SB bets the flop with a straight draw. MP3 calls with a backdoor flush draw. If I raise here, they will both still call, but possibly check it to me on the turn.

The turn completes the SB's straight, and even though I am beat, I have many outs to beat his straight. The turn also gives MP3 a more reasonable flush draw. So of course he's staying in.

River completes MP3's flush and I have the 3rd best hand. Moral of the story here is, a raise on the flop would not have changed anything except me losing at least another small bet.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is Button with 6

, 6

.
2 folds, UTG+2 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Hero calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 9

, 6

, A

(5 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T

(4 players)
SB bets, UTG+2 raises, MP3 calls, Hero 3-bets, SB caps, UTG+2 calls, MP3 calls, Hero calls.

River: (20.50 BB) 2

(4 players)
SB checks, MP3 bets, Hero calls, UTG+2 calls.

Final Pot: 23.50 BB

Results in white below:
Hero has 6c 6s (three of a kind, sixes).
SB has 8d 7c (straight, ten high).
UTG+2 has Th Ah (two pair, aces and tens).
MP3 has Jd Kd (flush, king high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 23.50 BB.

Hand 2
UTG has a straight draw on the flop, and he bets it, and I just call him.

The problem here is he checks the turn, where I am pretty much forced to bet, but he's obviously not folding his straight draw.

The river completes a fairly obvious straight so I am forced to just call.

Bottom line here, a raise on the flop would not have made this player fold his straight draw. Again the only difference it would have made is losing at least one more small bet.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 5

, 5

.
UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5

, T

, 7

(5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) 6

(3 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, Hero bets, SB folds, UTG calls.

River: (5.50 BB) 4

(2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 7.50 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has 6s 8s (straight, eight high).
Hero has 5h 5s (three of a kind, fives).
Outcome: UTG wins 7.50 BB.

Hand 3
Now here is the hand you've all been waiting for. I check call the flop, hoping for a check/raise on the turn.

Unfortunetly the CO doesn't bet the turn and I've given them a free river.

The river completes MP3's inside straight draw.

Lets look at the flop a little closer. Suppose I had bet it. Mp3 would have called and CO may have even raised. The only way MP3 is possibly folding this on the flop is if I had check raised the flop. But while we can see that is the best move now, there is no way to know that for future hands. Therefore I don't see check raising the flop as a good play.

If I had bet the turn, I'm guessing I would have won the hand right there. I have no idea if MP3 would have called with an inside straight draw though. But lets just say they wouldn't have. So that's one hand I would have won if I had played it more aggressively. I would have won about 1 BB if I had won this hand on the turn. Instead I lost 2 BB. I don't think it's very significant.

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 5

, 5

.
3 folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 5

, 4

, 3

(5 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO bets, BB folds, Hero calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) Q

(4 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, CO checks.

River: (3.75 BB) 2

(4 players)
Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO folds.

Final Pot: 5.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG doesn't show.
Hero has 5h 5d (three of a kind, fives).
MP3 has Ac 7c (straight, five high).
Outcome: MP3 wins 5.75 BB.

OK I've got my flame suit on and I'm prepared for anything. Fire away.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

Play for FREE and practice your game at...

Join the FTR Poker Forum to disable these banners and start posting!

euphoricism

08-17-2005, 05:29 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Its read, and board specific. Im more apt to do it on a very uncoordinated board.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

TylerK

08-17-2005, 05:32 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME

Posts: 1,791

The argument against slowplaying is not that it allows you to get drawn out on, it's that you miss bets with a well-concealed better hand against people who are calling regardless. Giving a free card with the best hand suuuuuucks.

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

Shark Bait

08-17-2005, 05:40 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerK

OK, but wouldn't I rather get in a check raise than have them just call down with a worse hand? 2 big bets from a check raise (if they call it) vs 0.5-1 big bets from a flop bet/raise.

I think it sucks even more when I bet the flop and everyone folds.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

TylerK

08-17-2005, 05:57 PM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME

Posts: 1,791

If their hand is that bad that they'd just call a flop bet, they're checking behind on the flop a majority of the time.

If nobody has a hand, then nobody has a hand. It sucks worse to check the flop through with a set of 7's and have someone spike a set of 8's on the turn than it does to bet and take the pot down on the flop.

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

08-17-2005, 06:02 PM

#6 (permalink)

Guest

Posts: n/a

don't check raise the turn... what if you check the flop to slowplay, everyone else checks, now you check to checkraise and everyone else still checks! You've given two free cards! Don't do it!

pokerlearner

08-17-2005, 06:03 PM Post subject: how is this line

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

I will raise the flop with a set if its a 2 suit board. I have a concealed hand (representing a flush draw when I have a set). If the flush card DOESNT hit the turn, the original bettor will bet again and you can raise again.

However, if the flush card hits, you just call and hope for the river to pair up.

I dont slowplay sets that often especialy on coordinated or 2 suited boards. You have the best hand for now and can improve often. build the pot while you have the best of it and will often end up being the best.

Shark Bait

08-17-2005, 09:15 PM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

OK here's another one where you might say I lost this because of a slow play. I'm sure SB would have folded to a flop raise. I lose 5.5 BB

Ultimate Bet 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 6

, 6

.
1 fold, Hero calls, MP1 calls, 4 folds, SB completes, BB raises, Hero calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 6

, 3

, 7

(5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero calls, MP1 calls, SB calls.

Turn: (6 BB) 4

(5 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Hero raises, MP1 folds, SB calls, BB calls.

River: (12 BB) 2

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, BB folds, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

Results in white below:
SB has Qh Th (flush, queen high).
UTG doesn't show.
Hero has 6h 6c (three of a kind, sixes).
Outcome: SB wins 16 BB.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

TylerK

08-17-2005, 09:22 PM

#9 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME

Posts: 1,791

This one I like, but only because BB bet for you and you were next to act. You don't want to raise and blow everyone out of the pot. But if BB checked to you, you should bet.

Of course, if they're going to call 2 cold as easily as they call 1, maybe you should raise the flop anyway.

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

outphase

08-18-2005, 04:34 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 949

If there has not been any raise preflop, I fire one out regardless of position, now if it's been raised preflop, I try to wait for the turn to stop slowplaying, but that's just me

Quote:

Originally Posted by lambchopdc

Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.

Shark Bait

08-18-2005, 02:53 PM

#11 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Another thing I do is if I raised preflop and I hit my set, I will bet/raise it. Because everyone expects the preflop raiser to bet the flop regardless of the cards. Most players know that this flop bet often means nothing and have no problem calling it.

It just looks suspicious when the preflop raiser checks the flop. It's more likely to get checked through without any bets.

<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!

Latest Poker News
KoRnholio	05-26-2012, 03:08 PM Australia Legalized Online Poker coming up in next 6 to 12 Months
According to an email sent out by Mark Bryan, a gaming analyst at Merrill Lynch, the Australian government plans to legalize online poker sometime in the next six to 12 months. This move will coincide ... more at Poker Blogs »

« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Switch to Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads You may not post replies You may not post attachments You may not edit your posts BB code is On Smilies are On [IMG] code is On HTML code is Off Trackbacks are On Pingbacks are On Refbacks are On Forum Rules

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:58 PM.

Play Texas Holdem Online, Online Texas Holdem Strategy, & Poker Forum

This is not a gambling website.

Poker Forum

Over 1,246,000 Posts!

Poker Forum

All Other (Limit) Poker

Slow playing sets

Play for FREE and practice your game at...