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Fnord

09-26-2005, 05:37 PM Post subject: Silly little live hand

#1 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

9/18 live game, my table image is already getting TAggy.

3 limpers and I raise A

in LP. Blinds refuse to fold, all call.

6 to the frop of T

Checked to me, I bet and I think someone actually folded.

Turn is 6

Checked to loose/passive donator who donk-bets. I'm next to act, what's my play?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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chardrian

09-26-2005, 05:45 PM

#2 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

Join Date: Apr 2005

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I never know what you are gonna do which is why I think you do so well. But I raise there.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

Fnord

09-26-2005, 06:04 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

But I raise there.

Raise is an answer, maybe even a good one. Why?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

09-26-2005, 06:12 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by chardrian

But I raise there.

Raise is an answer, maybe even a good one. Why?

because he is donk betting a pair with a flush draw and you need to make him pay. It could even just be a flush draw.

Fnord

09-26-2005, 06:17 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

because he is donk betting a pair with a flush draw and you need to make him pay. It could even just be a flush draw.

In the Party 2/4 game, you're right about 80% of the time. Anyone play the Commerce 9/18 or similar games?

Say I raise, what's my plan from there?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

09-26-2005, 06:41 PM

#6 (permalink)

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well if your 3 bet your in trouble. You have position you can check behind another club on the river. If donk bet raise is just called i bet any non club or four straight.

And yes......donk bets are less donkish live than online......but i still say he has like a10/k10 with a flush draw here. , but a small flush is possible, and if he has an 8 he is terrible for not raising the flop and your paying him off every time.

I had a hand like this with a set of kings at a 10/20 game at winstar in oklahoma. I flop set bet flop small blind calls. Turn completes flush draw he donk bets into me i raise he calls. I bet river he calls and shows like 108s for the flush. Online i would not have expected to see a flush the way the hand played out.

pokerlearner

09-26-2005, 06:43 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

Raise here and then check behind on the river if checked to. The donk might even try to check raise you on the river if he has the 8 or God forbid has 7-9.

sorry for thread hijack but similar hand happened yesterday at a very VERY loosey goosey table at B&M yesterday.

I raise from Button with QQ.

Flop: 8-8-10

UTG+1 bets (aggressive maniac), UTG+2 (passive fish) calls, MP1 calls, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, UTG+2 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: 8-8-10-7

Utg+1 checks, UTG+2 bets, MP1 calls, Hero FOLDS.

the fold was completely dependent on read on UTG+2. UTG+2 is a complete fish, will call till the river with top pair-no kicker, middle pair, bottom pair top kicker. Doesnt raise nut flush worried on a paired board, doesnt bet straight on a flush board, doesnt raise nut straight..etc..

in showdown UTG+2 shows J-9.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

so anyways, If it were me, I would raise the turn here and would like to say that i check behind if checked to on the river, but i am an idiot, I probably bet in the river again and make a crying call if check-raised.

chardrian

09-26-2005, 07:09 PM

#8 (permalink)

I rarely,if ever, get pms

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

because he is donk betting a pair with a flush draw and you need to make him pay. It could even just be a flush draw.

In the Party 2/4 game, you're right about 80% of the time. Anyone play the Commerce 9/18 or similar games?

Say I raise, what's my plan from there?

Never played the commerce game. But just based on then hand, I raise because more often than not I think I'm ahead. The 8x, the flush and the 79 beat us right now and are worrisome but I think the T with a club, or even a high club with either a 7 or 9 kicker, and any PP 77 or higher might make this play as well.

If donk 3 bets me - I probably think long and hard and call both the turn and a safe river.

If donk calls - well then it depends on what the river is and what the donk does before I decide what to do.

http://chardrian.blogspot.com
come check out my training videos at pokerpwnage.com

09-26-2005, 09:33 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Raise, catch an ace on the river and drag the pot while laughing about how easy poker is.

Demiparadigm

09-26-2005, 10:52 PM

#10 (permalink)

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You can't fold, because you have odds to draw to a boat against a flush. (or even a 66 boat)
The pot is large, so you want to maximize your chance of winning it.
There is a chance you are best, but it is a small chance.
If you think there is little chance of getting 3 bet, the correct play is clearly to raise, but you can not fold to a 3 bet.
There are not really outs that you need to clear up, so calling is not as bad an option as it is in a lot of similar hands. There are players left to act, and you are way ahead/way behind. A raise will only get out players with approxiately no chance of winning.
There is a small chance that LP is betting a hand that you can beat, and one of the players left to act will fold a club for a raise (like the J or lower) Which would make a raise correct, since you give up one bet if you are behind in a large pot, but may give up the pot if drawn out. However, larger flush draws aren't folding, so this is not huge.
I think the EV difference between raising and calling here is almost negligible, but I know that I would raise on the spur of the moment, unless I had a good read that LP had a made flush.
If there is ever a close decision between raising and calling, it is best to default to raise.
Also, calling you are forced to call on the river unimproved whereas raising you can get away from the hand on the river if bet into again. So either way you are putting in 2 bets.
The closeness comes from the EV you get from the players left to act who would call 1 bet drawing dead, but would fold for 2. (a hand like AJ or KQ)

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

jmontis

09-26-2005, 11:39 PM

#11 (permalink)

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well, you can only hope he doesn't have an 8, the flush, or the straight.

So raise, and check the river.

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

Fnord

09-27-2005, 12:11 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quite often there is more to a hand than you thought when you posted it. Somtimes there is less. I guess this is the latter

I raised, everyone folded to donk who called. River blanked and I checked behind.

Donk had Q

for the crub frush, I smiled and mucked without showing (I think a lot of people fuck up the hand by showing here.) He was probably protecting from me taking a free card or cheap showdown.... or maybe not even thinking that deep. Interesting psychology there perhaps...

BTW, props to the Commerce dealers and players they're very cool about not showing losing hands that reach showdown.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

pokerlearner

09-27-2005, 09:59 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: california

Posts: 366

really !! I am VERY SURPRISED.

In my local Indian casino, ANY PLAYER at the table can request for any hands to be shown if it is called/checked at showdown.

If 3 people muck at showdown after calling, i have seen players not in the hand requesting the dealer to be shown all 3 cards. its almost standard practice here.

Fnord

09-27-2005, 10:13 PM

#14 (permalink)

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The same stupidity happens at Diamond Lil's in Seattle. Also, the Commerce 4/8 game had more showing (but the dealer discouraged it.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

RiverMonkey

09-27-2005, 10:24 PM

#15 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerlearner

I hate that rule ... I don't think it's good for the game. I almost never ask to see mucked cards, and consider it poor etiquette.

I only do it VERY rarely to get under the skin of someone if it will create some down-stream opportunity to benefit from it in some way. Or out of pure spite because it was done to me by the same person; this also can often result in a profitable situation too. Petty huh?

The fact that its "almost standard practise" and the fact that I'm seeing it more and more at my local B&M sucks. As less and less peoeple consider it poor etiquette and more and more abuse the rule it starts to become generally accepted ... I don't see how this is good for the game.

Kessler

09-28-2005, 06:59 PM

#16 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

Only time I asked to see mucked cards at my showdown is when the guy in Seat #1 shows his hand to the end of the table before souping with a smile. And if I'm not in the hand, I usually don't care. I agree that it's good information, but at my weenie limits (2/4,3/6,4/8) it's only minimally helpful.

I also detest slow-rolling, and only exposing one card. Wankers!

-Kessler

If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

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