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Fnord

03-09-2005, 07:35 PM Post subject: A silly calldown

#1 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Both the donators have busted and this is my last orbit. The table is tight. Tight tight, did I mention that the table is tight? Mean VP$IP for the table is lower than mine. Heck, I think I'm the loosest guy left at the table.

This guy looks like a rock, but my sample size is small.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with K

, K

.
6 folds, Fnord raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Fnord caps, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J

, A

, 5

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

River: (7.50 BB) J

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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Room

03-09-2005, 07:46 PM

#2 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 197

assuming youre not going to fold KK, you played perfect. gave up the minimum. i might raise the flop against other opponents to see where i stand. but getting 3 bet back.... its just too hard to throw away KK even if you know youre beat.

ChezJ

03-09-2005, 09:00 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

why not raise the flop to test the guy? he could have QQ. if he re-raises then you can let go of the hand and not go all the way to the river to prove your hand is no good. if he calls, you can take the freebie on the turn.

i'm guessing he has JJ or AJs.

ChezJ

Trikflow77

03-09-2005, 09:06 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Location: im so asian

Posts: 1,460

The only reason I can justify this call down is the flush draw on the board. With no real read though, I dont know if Id call down. Cant say that I would lay it down all the time though. I might could find a river fold here though, you only beat a bluff.

Chicago_Kid

03-09-2005, 09:15 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Yeah, gotta put the TAP'er on JJ, KK, or AA once he bet out post flop, I would think. If he's hip to your game at all, he's probably ahead.

I don't think I could lay this down HU though...I'd play it the same.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Trikflow77

03-09-2005, 09:19 PM

#6 (permalink)

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A good player could would 3-bet with A-x here if he thinks a steal is likely. After the cap though, he would most likely slow down somewhat, but with the call,call,call there is no way to tell.

ArcticKnight

03-10-2005, 03:00 AM

#7 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

This is a great hand to review.

Looking at the hand as a whole, and Fnord's read and the SB bets, one could make a case for a fold somewhere in here. But if you look at each street indivudually, it's hard to make a case anywhere???

Post-flop it's one bet to see the turn (hoping it's not a club), so call.

Turn is only good for BD flush draw, so call

River, is well...... how do you fold KK for 1 BB.

Guess you call and hope for QQ, 1010.

In general it may have made sense to fold , but you can't find anywhere in particular where it makes sence to fold.

The MOST likely place to fold is post-flop, and the LEAST likely place to fold is post-flop. (Fnord, u should take comfort knowing that even I wouldn't fold this post-flop - lol). Not knowing I could call/call/call to the river.

This seems like a hand where you just say, 80% chance I'm beat, but I'm calling down as cheap as I can cause, damn it, he might not have ace-big.

Remember the movie "Officer and Gentleman", when Gere said "I got no place to go".

Fnord ....."I got no place to fold.."

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

03-10-2005, 03:08 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Given that I capped pre-flop how would you expect a player showing signs of understanding this game to play an Ace here?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

03-10-2005, 03:31 AM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Given that I capped pre-flop how would you expect a player showing signs of understanding this game to play an Ace here?

AKs? perhaps AQs? or am I never going to get this right. You advocate capping with AKos, but a solid player is not supposed to call the preflop cap with a better holding than AKos??

Or let me put it this way, if "you" 3 bet with AKs, and it gets capped by one player, do you fold your 3 bets then and there??? According to your comment above , only a player without an understanding of the game would call the cap (1 more small bet) with AKs.

The link below has a very funny thought on playing AK.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...sb=5&o=14&vc=1

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

03-10-2005, 04:00 AM

#10 (permalink)

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This isn't a pre-flop discussion. You're wrong (of course), but that's a topic for another day

I found it very interesting that he bet into a cap on the flop. I think AK/AQ/AT tries to trap me for an extra bets in case I have KK/QQ. However, JJ/AJ might bet into me hoping I have AK and want to spew lots of chips, but quite often they'll c/r the flop or wait for the turn to wake up as well. An aware QQ/TT-22 would bet into me in hopes I fold a bigger pair fearing the Ace or raise my AK and give him a cheap escape. Given that I called down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Nehmer

03-10-2005, 04:10 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Posts: 666

Quote:

I think AK/AQ/AT tries to trap me for an extra bets in case I have KK/QQ.

If I have AK vs somebody that capped preflop and an A hits, I bet the flop everytime assuming that he's going to raise me with his KK/QQ/etc..Then I call his raise and check/raise him on the turn. By that time he's pot commited to see my ace, so he calls me down. Only downside is getting 3-bet on the turn the few times you are up against AA.

Fnord

03-10-2005, 04:36 AM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Nehmer

The other problem is that very aware players will fold to your turn check/raise, check behind on the turn or just call down with KK/QQ/etc. Hence, I prefer to 3-bet the flop.

Anyway, I wasn't at that level of depth against this guy. His lead suggested weakness.

For the results oriented, I expected to lose and blamed my 50BB downswing on Empire today for making this play, then he showed QQ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

03-10-2005, 04:46 AM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

This isn't a pre-flop discussion. You're wrong (of course), but that's a topic for another day

You raised the opponents pre-flop play to point to what his holdings may or may not have been, when I said he could have Ace-big. And now when it appears you may have provided some contradictory guidance, you go into "pre-flop discussion is for another day." How convenient.

Also, I'm not sure how I can be wrong. I posed the following question to you, I did not make a statement..

Quote:

So, Fnord, do you fold AKs after your 3bet is capped, or do you call.

You chide me on another thread for NOT capping with AKos pre-flop, and on this one you say your opponent would be too "SMART" to call a capped bet (HU) with AKs ...(a better hand) Your advice is contradictory, so you should at least have the oppotunity to set the record straight...

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

03-10-2005, 06:07 AM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

on this one you say your opponent would be too "SMART" to call a capped bet (HU) with AKs

Huh?

For what it's worth, I'm almost always capping AK pre-flop when I get the chance and I would never fold a hand pre-flop for 1 more sb after putting in a full unforced bet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-10-2005, 10:15 AM

#15 (permalink)

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CAP IT BABY!

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with A

, K

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, Fnord raises, 1 fold, CO 3-bets, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, Fnord caps, CO calls, SB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (18 SB) 2

, K

, Q

(4 players)
SB checks, MP1 checks, Fnord bets, CO calls, SB calls, MP1 folds.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 5

(3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 9

(3 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, CO calls, SB folds.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has As Kh (one pair, kings).
CO has Qh Ac (one pair, queens).
Outcome: Fnord wins 15.50 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ChezJ

03-10-2005, 03:55 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

wow he had the *one* capping hand that you could beat. you really threaded the needle on that one!

ChezJ

Fnord

03-11-2005, 12:13 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

wow he had the *one* capping hand that you could beat. you really threaded the needle on that one!

I was getting 3:1 on my money pre-flop with a premium hand. Easy cap.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

03-11-2005, 01:34 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

From the beginning I thought AKs or AQs, but I am suprised he called cap pre-flop with AQos.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

03-11-2005, 01:46 AM

#19 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

From the beginning I thought AKs or AQs, but I am suprised he called cap pre-flop with AQos.

No one folds for 1 more SB pre-flop. Even if they did, too often it would be a mistake.

BTW, I had a rocky looking guy 3-bet me with AJs today (caught his Jack on the turn to crack my AQ top pair.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

03-11-2005, 03:38 AM

#20 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,460

I dont consider it a bad three bet if its an open raise and the guy is laggy or raises over 10% of his hands.

ArcticKnight

03-11-2005, 05:33 AM

#21 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Dec 2004

Location: golf course

Posts: 416

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Given that I capped pre-flop how would you expect a player showing signs of understanding this game to play an Ace here?

Thanks Fnord and others for being patient with me even when I get frustrated by not fully understanding the situation. I guess I'm still not quite sure what the above means. Sorry, Fnord, for venting previously as I try and reconcile whether the SBs pre-flop play was correct of not.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Demiparadigm

03-12-2005, 12:33 AM

#22 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

Preflop: Fnord is Button with K, K.
6 folds, Fnord raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Fnord caps, SB calls.

This is pretty standard preflop action. At a very tight table, when the SB 3 bets, we can expect AA, KK, QQ, JJ, AK(s or o) and AQs
The KK and AK are slightly less likely since Fnord has 2 Ks in his hand.

We can break it down like this: There are 6 ways to make AA, QQ and JJ each.
1 way to make KK (the remaining 2 Ks)
8 ways to make AK
There are 16 ways to make AQ, but only 4 suited.

Since Fnord was on the button, this looks like it may be a steal attempt. I would say there is about a 10% chance the blinds will reraise with a mediocre hand (i.e. JTs) and a 20% chance they have a less than premium hand (AJs, KQs, TT)
-Again this is for a tight table.

Since Fnord has KK, it is correct to cap pre flop. However, as a side note: Capping preflop gives your opponent information on the texture of your hand, but his call tells us nothing more about his.

Flop: (9 SB) J, A, 5 (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

This is where we get most of our information. It is expected that whoever closed the action on the last betting round will lead in the following round. Since Fnord "closed" the action by capping, The SB can expect him to bet the flop almost regardless of what comes.
A bet here by the SB indicates a weak made hand.
We can almost completely rule out AA and JJ ( as most players would wait until the turn to raise with these hands)
We can probably rule out the flush draw, since the only suited hands that would be 3 bet preflop include the A.
I think most of the time AK goes for a check raise on the flop, since he can expect Fnord to bet.
So, the most probable hands that we are left with are AQ and QQ. either of these hands probably leads here as a "probe bet" the AQ fearing AK, and the QQ fearing any A.
The QQ has more incentive to bet here, becuase of the possibility that KK would fold due to the A on board.
The AQ has more incentive to check raise, risking 2 SBs to better define his opponents hand.
Since the most probable hand for our opponent to have is QQ, we are only left to decide what the best action to increase our profit is.
If Fnord raises on the flop, QQ will probably fold, or call then fold for any bet on the turn. Any better hand than KK will reraise, and Fnord would most likely have to call. So the best option on the flop is call.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 8 (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

Again, a better hand will reraise and a worse hand will fold.

River: (7.50 BB) J (2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

SB shows QQ, Fnord Wins!!!

Final Pot: 9.50 BB

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