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Should I Be Playing These More Aggressively?

  
 
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silverfist
Old 12-30-2005, 02:43 PM     Post subject: Should I Be Playing These More Aggressively? #1 (permalink)  
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Okay, 0.5/1 hasn't been going well, but I chalk that up to bad flops and some silly bad beats. Plus, the losses just seem larger. Anyway, here was a hand I was unsure about. It seemed I always had the odds to call up to the river (gutshot + overs/gutshot + flush draw + overs). Should I be playing these more aggressively? I had a phase where I played draws aggressively and it didn't work out so well.

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with A, K.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (14 SB) T, Q, 3 (7 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, SB folds, Hero calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: (8 BB) 2 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (10 BB) Q (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 11 BB
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euphoricism
Old 12-30-2005, 03:18 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Woa what a fishbowl. Everyone seeing the flop, ditching it before the turn if they miss.. Hm.

If you raise preflop, you should really bet the flop. If anything, it'll give you the odds to continue if you get called. If you check to the button, you KNOW he's going to bet - he might not even have a peice!

Yes, I would have seen the river too, if thats your question. I might have even donked it - depending on if I thought button was just playing his position or whether he had a hand.
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Tripps7
Old 12-30-2005, 03:36 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I bet the flop getting 14-1 and see what happens. The turn is interesting, I am not sure I like check/call. I think I lead out On the turn. You have a 2nd nut flush draw, a gutshot and two overs. ALthough I am not sure I like my overs. I think button is on a draw. If he hit his flush on the turn he raises, if not he's probably got a queen or ten, or hasn't hit. I think a bit of aggression on the flop or turn would helped define buttons hand tremendously. Comments?
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Kessler
Old 01-02-2006, 08:21 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I am also currently playing Party's .50/1 tables. I 'normally' raise AKo pre-flop and cont bet the flop even if I don't catch. In my mind, I feel this disguises my hand. Because I bet the flop after a pre-flop raise with many holdings. I could have AKo, AA, TT, KJs, etc. I'm not sure if this is always correct, but it's been how I've been playing lately.

As for drawing to the topside straight. I do like it because it's the highest possible straight, but I also know that it's effectively an gutshot straight draw because we only have 4 outs to make our hand. But we do have overs that can win the pot, but they are somewhat dirty. If we DO catch one of our overs during our draw (ex: we hold A K with a turn board of Q J 4 A) we now have our top pair, but the A-high straight is now possible with KT so we need to be aware of that. But as long as the odds dictate that we draw to that 4-outer, I still stick with it. As for playing it aggressively, I would rather push harder on a nut flush draw than on an inside nut straight draw.

Thoughts?

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Xanadu
Old 01-02-2006, 09:19 PM #5 (permalink)  
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I'm not sure if I bet the flop here ... The AK is very vulnerable with this flop and if we bet and get a lot of callers, it will be hard to protect our hand if we improve on the turn. Having checked, the Button betting and SB folding is the best result possible, and I raise here facing the field with 2 cold ... any random A,K, or T will most likely fold, buying us some outs if we do hit an Ace or King on the Turn. We don't want to give away the outs to the gutshot broadway if an A or K falls. It would also be nice if any A3 or K3 or the dA would fold.
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silverfist
Old 01-03-2006, 12:55 AM #6 (permalink)  
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Yeah, in retrospect, I should have check-raised the flop and taken the lead. If someone reraised me, I could call-dump it on the turn. I had three great and seven not-so-great outs here, and may have even had the best hand. Anyway, it would have given me the info I needed to decide whether to continue with the hand.
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Demiparadigm
Old 01-03-2006, 02:13 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfist
Yeah, in retrospect, I should have check-raised the flop and taken the lead. If someone reraised me, I could call-dump it on the turn. I had three great and seven not-so-great outs here, and may have even had the best hand. Anyway, it would have given me the info I needed to decide whether to continue with the hand.
No and No.

A checkraise is spewing with A high on a flop where someone is guaranteed to have hit something, and you're probably going to have to showdown the best hand.

You can't fold on the flop to agression since you have outs to the nuts and odds to draw.
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silverfist
Old 01-03-2006, 02:29 AM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfist
Yeah, in retrospect, I should have check-raised the flop and taken the lead. If someone reraised me, I could call-dump it on the turn. I had three great and seven not-so-great outs here, and may have even had the best hand. Anyway, it would have given me the info I needed to decide whether to continue with the hand.
No and No.

A checkraise is spewing with A high on a flop where someone is guaranteed to have hit something, and you're probably going to have to showdown the best hand.

You can't fold on the flop to agression since you have outs to the nuts and odds to draw.
Well, spewing is a bit of an exaggeration. A raise would help protect my high card outs as well. The last thing I'd want is to spike my ace and lose to a flush draw.
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Demiparadigm
Old 01-03-2006, 03:15 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfist
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverfist
Yeah, in retrospect, I should have check-raised the flop and taken the lead. If someone reraised me, I could call-dump it on the turn. I had three great and seven not-so-great outs here, and may have even had the best hand. Anyway, it would have given me the info I needed to decide whether to continue with the hand.
No and No.

A checkraise is spewing with A high on a flop where someone is guaranteed to have hit something, and you're probably going to have to showdown the best hand.

You can't fold on the flop to agression since you have outs to the nuts and odds to draw.
Well, spewing is a bit of an exaggeration. A raise would help protect my high card outs as well. The last thing I'd want is to spike my ace and lose to a flush draw.
A)Flush draws don't fold.
B) You have the 2nd nut flush card in your hand. This makes it impossible to hit either an A or K and lose to a running flush redraw. unless you are afraid of hitting exactly the K on the turn and losing to a club flush on the river. This is not worth expending an extra bet to protect against.

C) In the same way that you should never raise for information, you should never raise to protect your hand or "buy" outs. This concept is misapplied. You should be raising for value, and applying the timing of your raises to better extract protection or information.
A -EV raise is -EV regardless of the side effects.
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 01-03-2006, 04:11 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
C) In the same way that you should never raise for information, you should never raise to protect your hand or "buy" outs.
really? i sure want hands like AT, KT, AQ, KQ, A3, K3 to fold.
 
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Demiparadigm
Old 01-03-2006, 04:57 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi
Quote:
Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
C) In the same way that you should never raise for information, you should never raise to protect your hand or "buy" outs.
really? i sure want hands like AT, KT, AQ, KQ, A3, K3 to fold.
I agree, but you don't have the equity in this pot to raise, really.
Specifically, you have odds to call for your gutshot, and by raising we no longer have those odds.
When we raise, we are giving the field 8 to 1 odds to draw, so if we are reverse dominated, we will often get calls anyway.
So we would need to hit the parlay that:
A) Someone is in the pot with a hand like KT or AT (No way AQ/KQ fold here) -and-
B) They will incorrectly fold getting 8 to 1 on a call

I think calling with good odds is much better than raising on the off chance that someone makes a bad fold in a loose passive game.
To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
 
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6high
Old 01-03-2006, 08:22 AM #12 (permalink)  
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You played this hand perfectly.

Checkraising this flop is a bad idea.

Although I agree with everything that everything that Demiparadigm says in this thread, he makes one slightly misleading statement:

"but you don't have the equity in this pot to raise"

How much equity you have in this pot isn't really the concern. How much equity you GAIN by making the c/r is.

IF you knew that button had a one pair (or weaker) hand that didn't share a kicker and IF you knew he would never 3 bet and IF you knew you could fold every hand that dirtied your outs you'd be able to clear up 6 outs and possibly add ~20% equity to your hand.

20% equity in an 18sb pot = 3.6 sb
Which far outways the 2sb investment. This is assuming that you will always see river.
But this is a fairytale.

The list of hands that will never fold this flop is monsterous.
But the flush draw isn't folding.
J9 isn't folding.
KJ isn't folding.
As soon as one calls,
bottom pair, middle pair, top pair, gutshot draws all have odds to call.
And in a big pot, it generally doesn't matter if people have the odds, they are chasing anyway.

Bottom line: Just call and learn to turn a Jack.

Just to confuse the matter. If you had position, I'd raise.
Just fold.
 
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|~|ypermegachi
Old 01-03-2006, 06:44 PM #13 (permalink)  
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yeah demi, i just attacked your comment, not whether raising was a good/bad play....as you stated, raising is a bad play here, which i also fully agree on :P
 
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ihategnomes
Old 01-03-2006, 07:56 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I've really never understood the Raise preflop then check-raise the flop moves. The way you play hands preflop changes the way you play them postflop. I most likely bet the flop getting a 14-1 with 2 overs, gutshot, and the backdoor second nut flush draw.
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Mike_Ann
Old 01-26-2006, 07:33 PM #15 (permalink)  

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I would have raise the preflop
Bet the flop. If get raise I'll fold. If still 3+ player call my bet and A or K didn't hit the turn I'll check and fold to a bet on the turn
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Prolaznik
Old 01-27-2006, 04:59 AM #16 (permalink)  

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Preflop:
Preflop playing was tragic for you - partly because of your raising, partly because of UTG's calling (instead of reraising - as I would expect).
IMHO, checking preflop is clearly the best. Since UTG and/or UTG+1 can well have better hand than yours - you should see the flop without further investments. If you don't see A or K (or QJT ), you should look for a reason to fold.
However, your raising is not that bad, just UTG and UTG + 1 "erred" by not reraising

Flop:
Your chances to complete the best hand (or to push out everyone) was small, but pot was huge. I think that folding, calling and raising was moves of aproximately same value.
Since everybody anyway folded - raising was obviously unnecessary, you saved a bet

Turn:
You of course called

River:
I'd call. Button well could have KJ or J9. If he has something like that one out of ten cases - calling is profitable.
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Old 01-28-2006, 01:57 AM #17 (permalink)  
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Seriously, you shouldn't play unimproved AK aggressively because you're supposed to be value-betting in this game, NOT making moves or being aggressive. Against ONE or TWO people there's a chance that you have the best hand or you force the third button out. But against a huge field like that, check-call with your draw, hit you straight and take down a big pot or fold when you don't get anything.
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KoRnholio
Old 01-28-2006, 02:56 AM #18 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iopq
Seriously, you shouldn't play unimproved AK aggressively because you're supposed to be value-betting in this game, NOT making moves or being aggressive. Against ONE or TWO people there's a chance that you have the best hand or you force the third button out. But against a huge field like that, check-call with your draw, hit you straight and take down a big pot or fold when you don't get anything.
Exactly what I was going to say. AK unimproved on a flop with 2 broadways and 7 players is behind 99.9% of the time. Betting = spewage, especially given your position.
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euphoricism
Old 01-28-2006, 07:53 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Mmm. Back then I must not have noticed OP was in the BB. I don't raise this one preflop.
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