Originally Posted by euphoricism

These are preflop folds unless the pot is about 8 way. At that point, you are playing for either a flopped four-straight, or flopped trips.

Originally Posted by sinky

I wouldn't routinely open raise from CO and BU with KTo and QTo.

Originally Posted by sinky

If the BU, SB or BB re-raises you are in big trouble. KTo and QTo are dominated by so many hands, it would be a mistake to call the 3-bet.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Why is that fnord? The 8 limpers is a bit of an exaggeration, but if there are two people limped in front of you and youre in mid, limping with QTo would be quite marginal. I can concede that if you're going to play it, you should raise it, but my preference would be for a fold.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I dont think thats the question aaag.

Originally Posted by sinky

I wouldn't routinely open raise from CO and BU with KTo and QTo.

Originally Posted by euphoricism

These are preflop folds unless the pot is about 8 way.

Originally Posted by sinky

I wouldn't routinely open raise from CO and BU with KTo and QTo. Fair enough if you have a couple of rocks to your left, but then you would open raise with many more hands. If the BU, SB or BB re-raises you are in big trouble. KTo and QTo are dominated by so many hands, it would be a mistake to call the 3-bet. You have to balance the 1.5 BB you win when the SB and BB fold v's the 2 SB you lose when you fold to the reraise.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

That is just bad, bad advice. If you ever fold ANY hand for one more bet after open-raising preflop, you just shouldn't be playing poker.

This isn't two card stud we're playing.

Originally Posted by jmontis

i've folded 2 bets to a cap before, knowing i was dead in the water, but that's different i think

Originally Posted by Fnord

I probably make a small mistake, but it was a mistake I could live with.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

o The implied odds against someone with a well defined hand are good.

Originally Posted by koolmoe

o Folding in that spot is terrible for your table image.

Originally Posted by |~|ypermegachi

HJ/CO/button i think these should be standard open-raises.
the MP positions are up to debate and should be raise/fold.

Originally Posted by Sinky

If the BU, SB or BB re-raises you are in big trouble. KTo and QTo are dominated by so many hands, it would be a mistake to call the 3-bet.

Originally Posted by Fnord

Back this statement up please, I want to see numbers. In 2 of the 3 cases you're horribly wrong.

Originally Posted by sinky

Fnord, help me here.
Let's say I open raise and the BB re-raises. I accept that If I fold I have shown real weakness and will probably never steal his blind again. So I should call. Typically he will bet the flop. How do you play this post flop, no longer as the aggressor and with a potentially dominated hand ?

This is the sort of stuff I need to improve on before moving up. At 1/2 I am getting payed off so often, with bigger hands than KT, that I don't focus on it enough.

Originally Posted by Fnord

3+ limpers to you with KT/QT

From the CO we might raise to steal the button, but calling is probably better. From the button it's a clear call. If it's 1 more back to you call, otherwise fold.

Raising pre-flop does a lot of bad things for us:
o It gives us initiative in a pot where we're probably going to have to showdown a winner.
o It builds a pot, tieing us to our hand if we hit the board taking away our ability to make an skillful fold.
o We probably don't have any pre-flop equity edge. We might even be a dog depending on how loose our opponents are.
o Tips our hand (sorta) in such a way loose/passives will punish us. They will often call down and trap us for extra bets in this big pot.
o How often are we really going to want a free turn card on the flop with a hand like KT if offered?
o Someone might make it a shoot-out by 3-bettting or capping it off for fun. At that point we're playing (as Koolmoe put it) "two card bingo."

Folding pre-flop would be throwing money away. We have a playable hand and great position. In games where it's 3+ limpers in front there are usually mulitple players making pre-flop mistakes who will play even worse post-flop. We need to be there to exploit that. Furthermore, if the blinds play badly (and won't fold anyway), letting them in for free gives them the rope to hang themselves post-flop when they try to play weak hands out of position. Quite often we'll be in a dominating position over a hand like K4 and our opponent will bet out and call our raise all the way down in an unraised multi-pot.

Calling pre-flop keeps the pot under control and gives us room to play well post-flop punishing our loose opponents.

Originally Posted by pokernewb

One more thing, say it's 3+ limpers and I'm in middle instead of late, would I still call here or is there too much danger of it being raised?

Originally Posted by pokernewb

Thanks, also I just thought of another question. Say there is a tight limper among the 3+ limpers who limps with minimum kings, queens and tens of say KJ, QJ and AT etc, would I still play KTo and QTo or should I fold since there is a good chance I'm dominated?