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pokernewb
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10-12-2005, 04:24 PM
Post subject: Should I limp A9o/A8o/A7o after a couple limpers from late
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
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I was wondering whether to limp with any or all of these from late and if so with how many limpers? I currently open raise all from late and raise one loose limper. Should I open raise A9o from Hi-jack as well?
Also should I limp ATo from middle with 2+ limpers?
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Tim Vecchioni
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Flush
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Maryland US
Posts: 327
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maybe even raise?
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back looking to make some moolah
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pokerlearner
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Flush
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: california
Posts: 366
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online yes. B&M no. Is my thinking out of line ??
Online, I always open raise A-10o, AJ0 from MP1 onwards. If i am being 3 bet I would hate it though.
In B&M with so many people in the pot at lower limits, and tons of people cold calling, A-10o, AJ0, even KQ0 doesnt have much preflop equity edge. but AJo probably better than KQo because of the ace.
or maybe i am being results oriented here. I will let the experts comment on it though.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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First, keep in mind that these hands are good plays HU, but lose value very quickly the more players in a hand. Therefore, limping these hands can rarely be a good play because you let the blinds in cheap and ruin your EV.
Regarding do you raise or fold, you can answer this question yourself once you answer some questions first that will be specific to your table at the time:
1. Of the people who have limped, do you have the best hand NOW?
2. If you raise, will the players behind you allow you to isolate your limper or fold through to the blinds?
3. If you raise, will the blinds fold or have they given you a history of calling/completing any two cards?
4. If you raise, have your blinds/limpers shown a history of calling down, or do they fold easily to a flop raise?
Others may have some additional tips in reading your table, but if your answers are no, you should fold. If yes, raise.
EDIT- Isn't your other thread is very similar to this? I skimmed it but couldn't you apply the same concepts?
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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A7o, A8o and A9o are weaker with more players in the pot while ATo goes up in value. The reason you ask? Straight value.
B&M people cold call with any Ace, don't get involved with a weak ace even behind other limpers. If you're on the HJ,CO or Button, you can open raise to steal or isolate because Axo is best heads up
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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pokernewb
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
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Thanks for the replies. So Ltrain, say there is one one loose limper who I'm pretty sure has a worse hand than me, and I'm also pretty sure the small blind will fold to a raise and the big blind will call, should I raise? How important is it that none will call me down? What if one or both would call the flop and fold the turn if they didn't hit anything?
Yeah, this thread is pretty similar to my last one, but I thought there may be some differeces between Kxo/Qxo and Axo.
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sinky
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: SCOTLAND
Posts: 295
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I fold A9o, A8o & A7o if there are any limpers. Typically if you hit an A on the flop you will win a small pot or lose a big one after gettting sucked in.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokernewb
Thanks for the replies. So Ltrain, say there is one one loose limper who I'm pretty sure has a worse hand than me, and I'm also pretty sure the small blind will fold to a raise and the big blind will call, should I raise? How important is it that none will call me down? What if one or both would call the flop and fold the turn if they didn't hit anything?
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The way you describe the limper and blinds I would raise from the Button, CO, maybe HJ if I didn't fear a coldcaller taking my position. The calldown factor is important because you want to collect scared money. A good mark plays to many hands and folds not hitting anything but top pair or a 4 card draw on the flop; ideally, you don't want to have to fight to showdown, but collect a lot of easy, small pots. Your turn question is what makes poker so fun and why we have so much debate, because your actions will vary depending upon your specific hand, what you flopped, the turn card and the other players.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by sinky
I fold A9o, A8o & A7o if there are any limpers. Typically if you hit an A on the flop you will win a small pot or lose a big one after gettting sucked in.
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Bad advice. I would agree with you if your limpers/blinds are very tight and routinely limping/playing A,10o and above, but this is just not the case at 2/4. Check your hand histories on PT and look at the massive crap most players are limping with or playing from the blinds. You lose value by not exploiting their stupidity.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ltrain
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sinky
I fold A9o, A8o & A7o if there are any limpers. Typically if you hit an A on the flop you will win a small pot or lose a big one after gettting sucked in.
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Bad advice. I would agree with you if your limpers/blinds are very tight and routinely limping/playing A,10o and above, but this is just not the case at 2/4. Check your hand histories on PT and look at the massive crap most players are limping with or playing from the blinds. You lose value by not exploiting their stupidity. |
Its not that bad advice. If there are any limpers Ax is a pretty nasty hand, most of the time you are just a 60/40 favorite HU, and probably less than that with more than one opponent. If it is folded to you then raising would be a good play.
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ltrain
Quote:
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Originally Posted by sinky
I fold A9o, A8o & A7o if there are any limpers. Typically if you hit an A on the flop you will win a small pot or lose a big one after gettting sucked in.
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Bad advice. I would agree with you if your limpers/blinds are very tight and routinely limping/playing A,10o and above, but this is just not the case at 2/4. Check your hand histories on PT and look at the massive crap most players are limping with or playing from the blinds. You lose value by not exploiting their stupidity. |
Its not that bad advice. If there are any limpers Ax is a pretty nasty hand, most of the time you are just a 60/40 favorite HU, and probably less than that with more than one opponent. If it is folded to you then raising would be a good play. |
60/40 edge preflop played with position sounds good to me. The scenario as I understood his follow up question to be was an analysis of preflop play against a loose passive limper who is limping a worse hand than A,9o-A,7o, and a big blind calling any raise. This to me is a clear raise. Also, the assumption was that I hit Aces. I have top pair with position on two players likely to call me with low-high pair or a draw and from the description, will likely only play back with 2 pr or higher. I am not going wild with no kicker, but I am liking this scenario. If I am folding preflop here JUST because there is a limper and I fear I might not be good if I hit my ace, I understand his point, but this to me is bad advice.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Kessler
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 117
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I hate A9o/A8o/A7o. Catch an Ace and you have kicker problems, catch your kicker and you are vulnerable to overpairs. Will only raise this in LP to steal. I've been burned by my kicker enough times to make this an insta-muck most of the time. Just easier that way. 
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If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.
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A9o is EV- according to pokerroom stats
but their sample size is is just a few hundred million hands
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by iopq
A9o is EV- according to pokerroom stats
but their sample size is is just a few hundred million hands |
...and it included donks who call raises with it.
I would certainly over-limp a hand like A9o on the button. Often the action on the flop by the time it gets to you will tell you where you're at.
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pokernewb
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
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Thanks Ltrain that explanation was very helpful  . Fnord does over-limp mean when there are 2+ limpers?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokernewb
Thanks Ltrain that explanation was very helpful :). Fnord does over-limp mean when there are 2+ limpers?
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I'd say 1+
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pokernewb
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
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Well if it means 1+ then is it not worth raising and trying to fold the small blind and maybe even the big blind with one limper? Is it better to see the flop with 3 opponents for 1 bet than it is to have 1 or 2 opponents for 2 bets?
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by pokernewb
Well if it means 1+ then is it not worth raising and trying to fold the small blind and maybe even the big blind with one limper? Is it better to see the flop with 3 opponents for 1 bet than it is to have 1 or 2 opponents for 2 bets?
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I really don't know, in my games blinds NEVER fold to "just" one raise.
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pokernewb
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Straight
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 137
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really, not even the small blind?
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