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Should I keep raising?

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drtofu66

05-13-2006, 10:13 PM Post subject: Should I keep raising?

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Villain is uber TAG. Normally I'd put him on KK or AA only PF, but he is perfectly capable of reraising AQ preflop as witnessed here ( I wasn't too happy to fold AKo preflop-- maybe I shouldn't have-- but I was less happy to call 3 bets or cap and catch air on the flop. I figured one of these guys had a big PP. I was wrong on that, but meh-- I saved myself some money on this hand so it worked out).

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with K

, A

.
UTG raises, 1 fold, UTG+2 3-bets, 7 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) 6

, T

, 8

(2 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q

(2 players)
UTG bets, UTG+2 raises, UTG 3-bets, UTG+2 caps, UTG calls.

River: (12.75 BB) 4

(2 players)
UTG checks, UTG+2 bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 14.75 BB

Results in white below:
UTG has Kh Qh (one pair, queens).
UTG+2 has Qc Ac (one pair, queens).
Outcome: UTG+2 wins 14.75 BB.

This is the hand in question. I went into call down mode on the turn because the pot was big enough that UTG+1 wasn't going to be folding his draw to 2 bets and villain was going to be betting/raising whether he had anything or not. I figured AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ were in his reraising range:

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K

, A

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 raises, 2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls, MP1 caps, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) A

, 6

, Q

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP1 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (12.75 BB) 2

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 calls.

River: (15.75 BB) 3

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG+1 folds.

Final Pot: 17.75 BB

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Shark Bait

05-13-2006, 10:44 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Hand 1 is interesting and I've found myself doing this (folding AKo to a 3 bet before me) against the right opponents. If you've got a guy that rarely raises and he 3 bets, I don't mind a fold. Although, I asked this same question a while back and a few regulars here told me they cap it everytime.

I like hand 2. When he leads the turn you can be pretty sure you're beat or splitting.

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drtofu66

05-13-2006, 11:55 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

The thing about hand 1-- if you cap or call the 3 bet, you don't gain any additional info on the 3 bettor. Yeah, you have position (unless someone behind cold calls a cap), but if you whiff on the flop and the 3 bettor bets or raises the flop, do you let it go or spew one more SB? I used to get too focused on the PF reraiser and forget that the original raiser had a good chance of having a decent hand and too many times he was the one turning over the overpair or set-- not the reraiser. I felt much better being the one 3 betting with position in hand 2 since it was open limped and then raised instead of open raised and reraised; even though he capped, it did give that extra bit of info. He had to have AA/KK/QQ/AK/AQ. I lose to 3 of those, split with one, and only beat one. The more I work this through, the better I like going into call down mode. I am losing some value in not charging the PF limper for his draw, but since I'm at best 20% to win outright and could get flushed on the river anyway I'm content with the overcall and just pay 1 BB to see the river.

elipsesjeff

05-14-2006, 05:12 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Hand 1: AKo is an auto cap for me, I can see folding AQo but not AQs. I dont really know how else to explain it but VALUE raise.

Hand 2: I think you played it fine. He could very well be freerolling you or have AQ and with the overcaller you dont know where you are.

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drtofu66

05-14-2006, 08:02 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Join Date: Apr 2005

Posts: 595

Hand 2 he did turn out to have KK. Thanks for the input. I have a feeling that I don't win as much money as I can when I'm ahead and I lose more than I need to when I'm behind. Glad to see that wasn't the case here.

Eclipsejeff-- for hand 1 if you cap PF, how do you proceed on the flop and turn? Do you just call that flop and fold that turn?

Shark Bait

05-15-2006, 12:52 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 481

Quote:

Originally Posted by drtofu66

Eclipsejeff-- for hand 1 if you cap PF, how do you proceed on the flop and turn? Do you just call that flop and fold that turn?

Yeah good question. Suppose the same flop comes. UTG bets and UTG+2 raises. Now you fold? or what?

I think the big question here is what does your average opponent 3 bet with? Most low limits we're talking QQ, KK, AA and AK and that's it. I'm not sure I really want to be re-raising someone that likely holds one of those.

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elipsesjeff

05-15-2006, 01:03 AM

#7 (permalink)

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Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

Most low limits we're talking QQ, KK, AA and AK and that's it

errr...? Its more read dependant than anything but I'd have to disagree, putting them exactly on that range is rather small.

If my opponents bet and raise before me on the flop its a pretty easy fold, I would peel one and call though if they donked into me.

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thenonsequitur

05-15-2006, 01:08 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Join Date: Nov 2004

Location: Location: Location

Posts: 637

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shark Bait

Most low limits we're talking QQ, KK, AA and AK

I think that range is too tight. I frequently see three bettors holding TT+, AQ+.
I sometimes see three bettors with 88, 99, and hands like AJ, ATs, KQ.
I rarely see three bettors with lower pocket pairs, lower suited connectors, aces with medium kickers, and other random hands.

The range I give to a particular player depends not only upon how I perceive the original raiser and the 3-bettor (in terms of looseness), but also how I think the 3-bettor perceives the original raiser (i.e. will he 3-bet only with the best holdings because he respects the original player's raises? will he 3-bet loose in an attempt to isolate? does he always three-bet the same hands regardless of the original raiser?).

euphoricism

05-15-2006, 07:00 AM

#9 (permalink)

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In Poker Essays, Malmuth talks about tossing AKo preflop in situations like those, namely because your opponents tend to have all or most of your outs, and you're rather unlikely to hit anything on the flop, and hence your hand becomes pretty tough to play.

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Kessler

05-15-2006, 08:23 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Las Vegas

Posts: 117

I've always had a hard time with the idea of "My opponent is probably holding some of my outs." I don't see why JJ and QQ wouldn't 3-bet from MP and have PF action like that. And if your outs are in play already, that would mean they'd have to be dealt. If they're still in the deck they are fair game, and you have no way of knowing either way.

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If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.

silverfist

05-16-2006, 01:38 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Join Date: Sep 2005

Posts: 341

In your second hand, I'd just call it down after my opponent 3-bets the flop. He's not going to three bet with anything you can reasonably beat. There's so much ace-rag going around right now, and by the river there's four rags to hit. If someone gets really aggressive when I hit with AK or AQ, I just call them down and see. Of course, if I hit my kicker, I'm back to raising. Here's a similar hand from earlier. Stupid flush draw (I still won, though

):

PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Silverfist is Button with Q

, A

.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Silverfist raises, 1 fold, BB calls, UTG calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (10.40 SB) 7

, 4

, A

(5 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, MP1 calls, CO folds, Silverfist raises, BB folds, UTG calls, MP1 3-bets, Silverfist calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (9.70 BB) Q

(3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 bets, Silverfist raises, UTG calls, MP1 calls.

River: (15.70 BB) J

(3 players)
UTG checks, MP1 checks, Silverfist checks.

Final Pot: 15.70 BB

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