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Should I have played this differently?

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BicycleBear

03-19-2005, 04:17 AM Post subject: Should I have played this differently?

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 4

Did Hero play this hand correctly or not? And if not, why? Thanks

PokerStars LHE (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with J

, K

.
UTG calls, 1 fold, MP1 raises, 4 folds, Hero calls, 1 fold, UTG calls.

Flop: (7 SB) J

, A

(3 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls, UTG folds.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 3

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) T

(2 players)
Hero checks, MP1 bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below:
MP1 has 5h 5d (two pair, aces and fives).
Hero has Js Ks (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.50 BB.

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BicycleBear

03-19-2005, 04:28 AM Post subject: Read this after you post your own comments.

#2 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 4

(Please read this after you provide your own comments.)

Explanation of why I posted and my own thoughts on this hand follows:

(1) I'm Hero in this hand and, although I won the pot, I felt I should have been more aggressive in my betting on the flop, to feel out what Opp. might be holding or not holding. Instead of betting on the flop, I checked to him, and basically called him down all the way to the river merely on a hunch that his quick bet on the flop was to try to rep. a set.

(2) Let's say I did what I probably should have done, and bet on the flop, if he raised me, should I fold right there or reraise and see what he does? I think if I bet on the flop, he may have folded and the pot would have wound up smaller, but I'm more interested in what is the correct play here. If I bet on the flop and he raised, and even if I reraised, I wouldn't be spending as many bets as I ultimately did going to the river. Perhaps I would be able to know if I should stop right there after the flop based on the betting sequence.

From preflop to the river I forked out 3.5BB, but if I had bet on the flop, he raised, and I reraised, it would cost me 2.5BB and I could probably have folded right there. And if he didn't reraise or even raise, I could proceed further with more confidence. What do you guys think?

(3) With a raise before me, was it incorrect to call preflop altogether?

What are the correct plays here?

Demiparadigm

03-19-2005, 04:42 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Feb 2005

Location: Party 6 max

Posts: 1,602

You should probably fold preflop. It is a small pot, and you are out of position. Since your cards are suited a call is okay, KJo is a definite fold.

I would try for a checkraise on the flop. Mp1 will usually bet at it unless he actually has an A. People like to slowplay. I think betting with the A is the best play, since you don't want to give a free card to a flush draw, but I think most players check the A here.

bet the turn. You probably have the best hand. If you are raised, call and check call the river.

Demiparadigm

03-19-2005, 04:51 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

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Posts: 1,602

Now to answer you 2nd question:
If you bet the flop and get raised, you should think about whether your opponent is the type of player who would raise on a bluff. If he would, reraise. Otherwise it is probably correct to call unless you think that your opponent would never raise without the A. Unfortunately even if it gets capped, you are probably stuck in the hand and need to call to the river. This is another good example of why to fold KJ preflop to a raise. Your opponent could even have KK or QQ and you wasted a few bets.
Except for my note earlier on checkraising the flop, this is a showdown you want to see cheaply. If you are ahead, you probably wont get more bets, and if you are behind, you will lose a lot more.
The exception to the cheap showdown of course, is that you don't want to give any free cards either.
Checkraise the flop, bet the turn, check the river.

Demiparadigm

03-19-2005, 04:52 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Posts: 1,602

Did that make sense?

To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.

BicycleBear

03-19-2005, 04:53 AM

#6 (permalink)

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 4

Check-raising on the flop sounds like what I probably should have done.
Thanks for the input.

And I probably shouldn't have called the raise with KJs from the SB to begin with.

Didn't have enough info about the kind of player it was either.

ChezJ

03-21-2005, 04:53 AM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

ChezJ is an unknown quantity at this point

i like the call pre-flop in EP because it sets you up to trap the guy if you hit the flop. you did hit the flop, so you should have checkraised him. i know it's scary, since most pre-flop raisers hold high aces, but you gotta make him prove it. if he re-raises, then you know you're toast right there and you can fold cheaply instead of spending a whole 2 BB's to find out. check-calling every street praying for your 2nd pair to hold up was very weak and -EV.

ChezJ

Fnord

03-21-2005, 07:16 AM

#8 (permalink)

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I like it.

Getting the 3rd player out of the pot would be nice, but I don't think it's critical. It was only 3 to the flop and raising will only put us in a tough spot as we'll be out of position firing away. If we have him beat he'll often fold. If we're smoked he's going to play back at us at a time of his choosing.

Agression isn't everything.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

RiverMonkey

03-21-2005, 05:51 PM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Let's play devils advocate for a second.

What about a re-raise on the flop to find out where you stand before going to the turn and river where the bets double?

o this doesn't always work because you might just get smooth-called.

o How your opponent reacts to your re-raise is very opponent-dependent!!

o If u get re-raised ... (and had the right reads on your opponent) you'd likely have to fold instantly. This could be viewed as a reason not to re-raise ... you are putting yourself in the position of being bluffed/bullied out of the pot.

o a side benefit of the re-raise play would be that you may slow your opponent down and get to the showdown for cheap. This isn't likely against an aggressive opponent who is sitting on an Ace.

o this play is probably more applicable in no-limit/pot-limit where future bets can be much larger than current ones. Raising for info is more important when you face larger reverse implied odds. My point about being bullied/bluffed out of the pot is an interesting one in this context ... Maybe a solid NL player can comment on this?

Hmmmmm? ...... In small stakes limit, I see more merit in the check-call down approach.

Fnord's point about position and your opponent having the freedom to choose when they are going to play back at you tips the scale for me; considering all factors, I think check-call down is the better play.

Thoughts/comments?

RiverMonkey

03-21-2005, 05:53 PM

#10 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

Please explain how the rest of the hand would play out if you check-raised the flop.

Would you lead out on the turn? What if you got raised there?

ChezJ

03-21-2005, 06:20 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: Washington, D.C.

Posts: 1,456

if he called my checkraise on the flop, then i would lead the turn with a fast bet hoping to fold him down.

if he called the turn, i'd check the river hoping for a free showdown. the third club makes this more likely.

ChezJ

Fnord

03-21-2005, 06:58 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

What about a re-raise on the flop to find out where you stand before going to the turn and river where the bets double?

Raising to "see where you're at" is over-rated.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

RiverMonkey

03-21-2005, 07:35 PM

#13 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 446

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by RiverMonkey

What about a re-raise on the flop to find out where you stand before going to the turn and river where the bets double?

Raising to "see where you're at" is over-rated.

I agree; that was my point. I wanted to lay out some of the reasons why it's over-rated.

IMO, it's more applicable in NL.

Room

03-21-2005, 07:41 PM

#14 (permalink)

Straight

Join Date: Mar 2005

Posts: 197

i think this was played well,

first off, c/r the flop - two problems i see...
1. what happens when he smooth calls, "yay im ahead, ill lead the turn" then he raises, oops. or even worse, he calls the turn, you lead the river thinking your J is still golden and he raises the turn, now youve LOST the maximum.

2. if he raises can you lay down? what if he 3-bets? he could very likely hold the A, KQs, KK, QQ, JJ and youd find yourself in a big hole.

i think your line is fine. if youre beat, you lose the minimum. when youre ahead, you win the max (against a reasonable player who would fold a losing hand to a c/r).

however, my final thoughts are to muck this preflop if you respect MP1 as a tight EP raiser. youre out of position, setting yourself up for possible trouble.

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