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Shifting toward a 30/20

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euphoricism

04-14-2006, 08:43 AM Post subject: Shifting toward a 30/20

#1 (permalink)

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I know here at FTR we claim that a 30/20 is close to being good, but not quite there, because we espouse the 25/15. Well, I'm beginning to question that. I think a superior post flop player (me) who wacks off to the idea of not paying people off (me, want pics?) and who is capable of folding a few marginally better hands in exchange for bigger action later on when I hold dominating hands (me, if I'm playing well.) can clean up.

Oh, and so can someone who has got nothing left to lose. Essentially, the 22/15 style is murdering me. I'm on about a 6 months breakeven if not slightly-down run. I know the theory as well as anyone else, I play the hands as well as everything else, but somethin just aint jiving with me. Definition of insanity everyone?

So I want to increase my aggression, and the number of pots I play. But uh, just raising the top 20% of your hands doesnt instantaneoulsy make your PFR 20%.. its a positional thing. Gotta know where.

My position stats and relating PFR from like my last 5k hands or so..(And I am not saying they're "correct", but they're "about right")

BTN: 23
CO: 21
HJ: 18
UTG: 16
BB: 7
SB: 15

for an average of 17%

So to get an average of 20%, we simply need to add 3% to our current average right?

In other words (AKA, the long way) the button is 23% PFR, and the overall average is 17%, so the difference is 6%. So to say it another way, we raise 6% more hands from the button due to our position relative to the table. So, if we wanted an average of 20% PFR, to keep our proportions about the same, what would we need to raise from the button? An extra 6%, or 26%.

So our new position stats, doing the same math for each position...

BTN: 26%
CO: 24%
HJ: 21%
UTG: 19%
SB: 18%
BB: 10%

Let me note here: This is your total pre-flop raise, NOT JUST your raise first in. For example, my 23% button PFR is only a 13% "raise first in" due to hands worthy of re-raising being included in there as well.

Aaaanyway, now the fun part. How does each new PFR number translate into hand-ranges? Well, Poker Stove gives us the following:

Button: 55+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
CO: 66+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T9s,A8o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo
HJ: 66+,A4s+,K7s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
UTG: 66+,A5s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+
SB: 66+,A5s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,ATo+,KTo
BB: 88+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,AJo+,KQo

Now of course that needs some tweaking to your personal style.

Lets contrast this range to the "range first in" -- the range where its folded to us preflop. Now, I dont know what a 30/20s numbers will look like. But since it appears that my raise first in is about 6% lower than my PF raise, so I guess we'll just have to assume the same.

Current ranges:
BTN: 12
CO: 13
HJ: 15
UTG: 17
SB: 8
BB: 0
Average: 11

Assuming the 30/20% has a raise first in of about 14%, the new numbers become...

BTN: 15
CO: 16
HJ: 18
UTG: 20
SB: 11
BB: 0-3... rarely.

And the ranges:
BTN: 77+,A7s+,K9s+,QTs+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo
CO: 66+,A7s+,A5s,K9s+,Q9s+,JTs,ATo+,KTo+,QJo
HJ: 66+,A5s+,K9s+,Q9s+,J9s+,ATo+,KTo+,QTo+
UTG: 66+,A4s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T9s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo
SB: 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,ATo+,KQo
BB: 99+,AKs

So, take from this what you will. I'm going to actively attempt to play the 30/20 role, because I think I can excel there. Who knows, maybe I'll fall flat on my face. Its happened before. Really, this post was about me figuring out what I'm going to change in my game to make myself the aggressor at the table, rather than just another faceless name.

-Euph.

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Ltrain

04-14-2006, 02:00 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Euph,

Great post, and it outlines exactly what I am struggling with right now and is the essence of one of my recent posts. One link that you can use for as a preflop outline is this:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...SESSID=&fpart=

Using these as a guide, I am now at about 28/18, which I am comfortable with for now. However, I too have to admit that I was playing at 22/14, but I have been on an extended break even, slightly down streak over about 20K hands trying to adjust from a winning Full Ring TAG style to 6 max. It has been very frustrating, and not the swings, but knowing I should be beating the game based upon the plays I was seeing. The breakthrough I had last night was to concentrate on one table, take alot of notes and reads, and try to get as much value out of each hand as I can. What I learned is: (1) I think I am still too predictable; and (2) it isn't so much about the particular numbers, it's about milking all value you can out of your opponents post-flop. This is of course easier said than done, but I know I can make the adjustments with time and be a better player. Also, there is MASSIVE amounts of value on each hand that I was missing post flop by trying to play too many tables (and for me that was 3

). Until I get a better handle on post flop adjustments, I am going to stick to one table for now.

Euph (and anyone else!), let's work on this together and post what we can for marginal situations so that we can make the necessary adjustments and all benefit from it (I am at work now but will try to post some marginal hands soon). I am at a lower limit than you play but I think it would be helpful.

Also, for anyone reading this, I think our low stakes limit section is getting a little stale; let's all try and post more hands and increase the discussion so we continue to improve. I for one am just as guilty as my law practice has been very busy lately, but I will make an effort to post more hands. My only request is to try and keep hand groupings to 3 at most. Again, I log on at work and have a limited attention span to be able to keep up with long hand histories

Just my 2cents.

"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.

thenonsequitur

04-14-2006, 03:25 PM Post subject: Re: Shifting toward a 30/20

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

...to keep our proportions about the same...

In going from 17% pfr to 20% pfr, I don't know if it makes sense to keep the amount you raise from each position proportional. I think a 30/20 can be profitable partly because of very strong use of position post-flop. That is, I don't know how much better one can get playing post-flop OOP.

So I think it might make more sense to add more the the CO and even more to the Btn as compared to the other positions, while still balancing out the average. So maybe something like this:

BTN: 28%
CO: 25%
HJ: 22%
UTG: 18%
SB: 17%
BB: 9%

The above I just made some alterations manually. Compared to adding a flat 3% to each position (X plus 3), this more similarly matches setting each position to 18% more than it was before (X times 1.18), but is still even more Btn-heavy than that. Does a weighting scheme like this make any more sense?

elipsesjeff

04-14-2006, 05:55 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Your numbers arent too far off, but your blind numbers are significanly too low and your UTG is pretty high.

Lately I've been running like 34/24 on the right tables and its also fun and profitable for me. Although i have an extemely small sample. I used to run 25/18 in the 15/30 full ring game back in august and at times I'm tighter than that in 6 max.

LAG it up.

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euphoricism

04-14-2006, 06:29 PM

#5 (permalink)

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My problem is I can't just say, "ooh! tight table! im gonna lag it a bit!" because I turn into a 45/28. Or worse.

Jeff, can you post your PFR and raise first in by position at one of your 34/25 sessions?

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euphoricism

04-14-2006, 06:32 PM

#6 (permalink)

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thenonsequitur. You know, you might be on to something there. Your numbers are about a 19.33 PFR too.

Keeping your UTG cards still fairly tight but loosening up even more on the button is probabaly a very good way to go about it.

LTrain: Thanks for the link Ill check it out.

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euphoricism

04-14-2006, 06:34 PM

#7 (permalink)

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I like that chart LTrain, thats pretty much exactly what I expected. I might play based off that for a while and see how things develop. And as you said, one table. :]

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elipsesjeff

04-15-2006, 05:49 AM

#8 (permalink)

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stop using charts dood

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euphoricism

04-15-2006, 06:13 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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midas06

04-18-2006, 06:26 AM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

stop using charts dood

dan

04-18-2006, 09:05 AM

#11 (permalink)

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edit>..

elipsesjeff

04-18-2006, 03:39 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

After second look, 18 VPIP UTG aint too bad but I still stand by his uber low blind numbers. Here is my numbers the last few sessions:

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pokerfanatic

04-18-2006, 05:20 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Well i think that playing 23/17 at 3/6 and down isn't all that bad but you might have to know when to switch gears given the table type and players and such...

here are my stats for this month @ 3/6 thus far...

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Miffed22001

04-19-2006, 02:13 PM

#14 (permalink)

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i run at about 30/15

What looks better then (no stats at mo) playing fewer hands to get to 25/15 or increasing the raising numbers to 30/20?
I find it easier to raise a larger number of hands at a shorthanded lhe table than i would at nl. Whats the real pros and cons here? Is it all just post flop play and reads? A lot of the sites ive played lhe at (crypto, pokerroom, prima) the play is generally loose anyway Is it better to play more hands with them or what? i know 22/15 would kill them but i wouldnt get so well paid i dont think

midas06

04-20-2006, 02:37 AM

#15 (permalink)

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raise more

pokerfanatic

04-20-2006, 02:53 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by midas06

raise more

who are you talking to?

midas06

04-20-2006, 03:11 AM

#17 (permalink)

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miffed

Miffed22001

04-20-2006, 04:51 PM

#18 (permalink)

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went for 35/23 today at small stakes and wrecked 4 tables.
Guess i can try this against more skilled opponents

pokerfanatic

04-20-2006, 07:01 PM

#19 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

went for 35/23 today at small stakes and wrecked 4 tables.
Guess i can try this against more skilled opponents

we were talking about playing this style at 5/10 and up the 30/20 that is...

Miffed22001

04-21-2006, 06:45 PM

#20 (permalink)

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3/6 is close
im moving to 5/10 when i have more time...

pokerfanatic

04-21-2006, 06:57 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

3/6 is close
im moving to 5/10 when i have more time...

yea i'm moving to 5/10 prob next week...

Biggest thing I have noticed when floating around looking at games is that 5/10 is like 3 times more Argo then 3/6 so you might want to take that into account...

Miffed22001

04-22-2006, 03:29 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

3/6 is close
im moving to 5/10 when i have more time...

yah
my first (and very small in the scheme of things) 60bbs swing was a nightmare

pokerfanatic

04-22-2006, 08:59 PM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerfanatic

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

3/6 is close
im moving to 5/10 when i have more time...

yah
my first (and very small in the scheme of things) 60bbs swing was a nightmare

pfff -60bb first time a? i was down 100bb yesterday my first time up there luckly i quit down 40bb for the day...

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