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Fnord

03-01-2005, 07:17 AM Post subject: Shaking off some rust...

#1 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

MP3 is dumping money. Plays just about every hand, calls down with weird aggro here and there.
UTG+1 is the table coach

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with T

, J

.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Fnord calls, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (6 SB) 9

, 8

, 6

(6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, UTG+1 raises, MP3 calls, Fnord calls, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls.

Turn: (7 BB) 7

(4 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, MP3 calls, Fnord raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 calls.

River: (14 BB) A

(3 players)
UTG checks, MP3 bets, Fnord raises, UTG folds, MP3 folds.

Final Pot: 17 BB

Table is loose/passive

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 6

, 3

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls, CO raises, Button calls, 1 fold, Fnord calls, UTG+1 calls, MP1 calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (12.33 SB) K

, 9

, 3

(6 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+1 bets, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) 8

(4 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+1 bets, CO calls, Button calls, Fnord calls.

River: (12.16 BB) 6

(4 players)
Fnord checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks, Button checks.

Final Pot: 12.16 BB

SB is loose/passive

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is CO with A

, A

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, Fnord raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 9

, Q

, 2

(4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Fnord bets, SB calls, UTG+1 folds, MP3 folds.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 3

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB raises, Fnord 3-bets, SB caps, Fnord calls.

River: (13.50 BB) 6

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 15.50 BB

UTG+1 is tight/passive, I seriously considered folding pre-flop.
MP1 is dumping money

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with A

, Q

.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, MP1 calls, Fnord calls, MP3 calls, 4 folds.

Flop: (9.33 SB) K

, T

, J

(4 players)
UTG+1 bets, MP1 calls, Fnord raises, MP3 folds, UTG+1 3-bets, MP1 folds, Fnord calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) 7

(2 players)
UTG+1 bets, Fnord raises, UTG+1 calls.

River: (12.16 BB) T

(2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: 12.16 BB

MP1 is unknown
Button is dumping money.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP2 with Q

, K

.
2 folds, MP1 calls, Fnord raises, 1 fold, Button calls, 1 fold, BB calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.33 SB) T

, 4

, J

(4 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Fnord calls, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (6.16 BB) 4

(4 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets, Fnord calls, Button folds, BB folds.

River: (8.16 BB) 7

(2 players)
MP1 bets, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 9.16 BB

Table is loose/passive

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 5

, 6

. UTG posts a blind of $3.
UTG (poster) checks, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Fnord completes, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Fnord calls.

Flop: (12 SB) A

, 7

, 8

(6 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (8.50 BB) 2

(5 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls, CO folds, Fnord calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 7

(3 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets, UTG+1 folds, Fnord folds.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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Trikflow77

03-01-2005, 09:28 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Hand 1: did you consider a 3 bet on the flop? Your equity is not great but i think their are benifits to the reraise. With your position it might buy you a card and hides the draw somewhat. I know when i see players cold call two, it usually indicates a draw, but hell, just about everyone in this hand is most likely on a draw.. The rest of the hand is standard.

Hand 2: Played fine. I would lead the river here 100% of the time though. With 3 other players in, big pot, you are bound to get overcallers. I am guessing you whiffed the river c/r. Its tempting to try to trap for those extra bb but you hand isnt THAT strong.

Hand 3: All you could do preflop and on the flop. WIth a loose passive read I dont know if I would 3 bet him here. Once he capped the rivers a crying call. But we have all seen some funny showdowns. If he was LAGGY, I wouldnt think twice about a 3 bet.

Hand 4: I cap this flop. He is most likely holding AA/AK/KK/JJ anything else he would not 3 bet ya on the flop. I see the call set up the turn raise. Easy river check.

Hand 5: I raise this flop also. You could get a free card, you could also force out hands like AQ or a weak 10 or 4. It might also get you position. turn is fine river is fine.

Hand 6: This is the only good line to take on this hand. You assume the BB will raise if you lead the flop, which will force out other players. with the hand you have, this will do no good, you really cant buy any outs here. Out of position I play the hand similar, the bb has shown strenght and I dont see a way to move him off his hand. Some might argue to lead the flop but with the raiser being on your left I think this sucks. If I had say q8 I might lead to protect my hand against other drawers, but that is assuming you think the BB will raise. I also like this line because if you hit your hand on the turn you will be able to trap for extra bets. If you lead or check raised the flop this would not be as likely.

Fnord

03-01-2005, 09:51 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

Hand 1: did you consider a 3 bet on the flop? Your equity is not great but i think their are benifits to the reraise.

With a strong draw I was trying to keep the SB/BB in the hand. Also, I like other players leading out when I hit. I have great equity, but it's an interesting value problem.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

Hand 2: Played fine. I would lead the river here 100% of the time though. With 3 other players in, big pot, you are bound to get overcallers. I am guessing you whiffed the river c/r. Its tempting to try to trap for those extra bb but you hand isnt THAT strong.

If I lead and UTG+1 raises me, no over-calls and I'm compelled to pay an extra bet with the worst hand. Hence I went for the check/raise. I figure I don't even have to be good 50% if I can trap others for bets. Whiffing sucked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

Hand 3: All you could do preflop and on the flop. WIth a loose passive read I dont know if I would 3 bet him here.

I had a good read and over-looked it in the heat of battle. I think I screwed up here, but then again it's Aces...

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

Hand 4: I cap this flop. He is most likely holding AA/AK/KK/JJ anything else he would not 3 bet ya on the flop. I see the call set up the turn raise. Easy river check.

Yeah, maybe I run this line too much. It kinda tables my hand. Then again, the turn card killed my action and the river destroyed my hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

Hand 5: I raise this flop also. You could get a free card, you could also force out hands like AQ or a weak 10 or 4. It might also get you position. turn is fine river is fine.

Agree. In a raised pot with the flop aggressor right in front playing it for draw value was a mistake.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

03-01-2005, 10:05 AM

#4 (permalink)

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In hand one you have good pot equity and I agree it is a value problem. I think the 3 bet with the possiblity of taking a free card is greater than the sb and bb calling. Plus if either of them have a 7 they are not going anywhere anyway.

What was your thinking on the last hand??

|~|ypermegachi

03-01-2005, 02:35 PM

#5 (permalink)

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hand 1: depending how loose the table is a 3bet is better sometimes
hand 2: yep
hand 3: yep
hand 4: fold preflop???? AQs is a 3betting hand! and you have position on this guy.
hand 5: yep
hand 6: i check raise the flop for value

zenbitz

03-01-2005, 06:04 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Hands 1 and 2 - do you consider your preflop calls to be a little loose?

TJo in an unraised pot? You are looking for the dream flop you got, or a J/T with no overcards... I am thinking that's more like a 10:1 than a 5:1, but maybe implied odds makes up for it.

63s in a raised pot... ugh. You play g00t tho

cartilago77

03-01-2005, 08:35 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Hand two: I don't care how loose the table is, this hand was played horribly preflop and on the flop. You got very lucky.

Would have been funny to see someone in hand three stay in with a 3-6 and crack your aces.

Fnord

03-01-2005, 08:44 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by superdave

Hand two: I don't care how loose the table is, this hand was played horribly preflop and on the flop. You got very lucky.

On the flop I was closing the action with bottom pair + backdoor flush in a big multi-pot. Easy call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-01-2005, 09:04 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

hand 4: fold preflop???? AQs is a 3betting hand! and you have position

I like to pick my targets for 3-betting. Tight/Passive raising UTG isn't someone I want to be messing with unless I got more than just AQ. Being sooted with dead money in the pot made it a cold-call.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with T

, 9

.
5 folds, CO raises, Fnord 3-bets, 2 folds, CO calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 3

, 5

, T

(2 players)
CO checks, Fnord bets, CO folds.

Final Pot: 4.16 BB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-01-2005, 09:05 PM

#10 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by zenbitz

TJo in an unraised pot? You are looking for the dream flop you got, or a J/T with no overcards... I am thinking that's more like a 10:1 than a 5:1, but maybe implied odds makes up for it.

It's close, but with the button I'm trying to play out these positions when the other windows aren't busy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

03-01-2005, 09:07 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by hypermegachi

hand 6: i check raise the flop for value

I don't like this line.

o On an Axx flop 6 way, I expect to need to show a hand to win.
o If the BB 3-bets I might lose players that would will make loose calls later.
o If the BB doesn't 3-bet I take lead of the hand making it harder to get in an extra bet when I hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

cartilago77

03-01-2005, 09:16 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by superdave

Hand two: I don't care how loose the table is, this hand was played horribly preflop and on the flop. You got very lucky.

On the flop I was closing the action with bottom pair + backdoor flush in a big multi-pot. Easy call.

exactly....bottom pair, need runner-runner for the flush. Still horribly played IN MY OPINION. May be an easy call for you but I prefer to say it was a stupid call.

Fnord

03-01-2005, 09:20 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by superdave

exactly....bottom pair, need runner-runner for the flush. Still horribly played IN MY OPINION. May be an easy call for you but I prefer to say it was a stupid call.

Big pot, lots of players I don't need much to make that call.

Board: Kd 9c 3s
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 16.7648 % [ 00.16 00.00 ] { 6c3c }
Hand 2: 29.0106 % [ 00.28 00.01 ] { AA-88, AKs-ATs, KQs-KTs, QJs-QTs, JTs, AKo-AJo, KQo-KJo }
Hand 3: 13.5622 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 4: 13.5721 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 5: 13.5565 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 6: 13.5337 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

cartilago77

03-01-2005, 09:27 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Good thing that not much is what you had then.

Trikflow77

03-01-2005, 09:29 PM

#15 (permalink)

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superdave, he was getting 15 to 1 on a 6 out draw. How is this stupid. The overlay in this pot is huge, a fold would be a stupid mistake.

cartilago77

03-01-2005, 09:38 PM

#16 (permalink)

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This is why I love poker forums...the ability to disagree.

I disagree with the call.

Did you honestly think (equity or no equity) that you were holding a winner? You knew you had a lot of drawing to do and got VERY lucky.

Just out of curiosity.....do you have the information on what the others held at showdown?

Trikflow77

03-01-2005, 09:51 PM

#17 (permalink)

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limit holdem is a DRAWING game, if you have odds to call. You are giving up money on the flop by folding hands that have the correct pot odds to call. Playing "if im beat, i fold" poker all the time in limit is a not the way to maximize your winrate.

simple example

your buddie has a has 3 cards face down. One is an ace and the other two are kings. He says, if you pick the ace I will give you 3 bucks, but if you pick a king you give me a dollar. Are you going to pass up this deal? Of course you are going to lose 2/3 but two time he wins a buck, the other time you win 3. Get it?

EV (1/3)(3) + (2/3)(-1)= .33 Every time you pick a card you are winning 33.3 cents on average. It a game of math too, you cant overlook that.

Fnord

03-01-2005, 09:54 PM

#18 (permalink)

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I gave them too much credit when I ran the PokerStove numbers...

Fnord has 6c 3c (two pair, sixes and threes).
UTG+1 has 5c 4c (high card, king).
CO has Ks 7s (one pair, kings).
Button has 2c 9d (one pair, nines).
Outcome: Fnord wins 12.16 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Trikflow77

03-01-2005, 09:58 PM

#19 (permalink)

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lol...that was a great bunch

cartilago77

03-01-2005, 10:18 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by trikflow77

I know very well that limit is a drawing game. But thanks for emphasizing that.

As you said, limit poker absolutely is a drawing game. A drawing game based on smart draws, not "boy, I hope I get lucky with my 6 out" draws. On a 3/6 table, you need to give these guys some credit. I can see the justification for the preflop call, but with my game I still would not have throw in $6 on it.

I never said to play "if i am beat, fold" poker all the time. But in some situations, and this is one in my opinion, that IS the correct form of poker to be playing. It is absolutely a game of math. Any time you want to play the game in your example let me know. And anytime you want to play that hand in that situation, I will gladly put my money up too.

gabe

03-01-2005, 10:23 PM

#21 (permalink)

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gabe is an unknown quantity at this point

regardless of whether he "gave them credit" for being 3/6 players or not, he had odds to call on every street

cartilago77

03-01-2005, 10:45 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Preflop
Cards %win %lose %tie Pot equity Odds
6c 3c 19.51 79.99 0.50 19.60% 0.24:1
5c 4c 18.13 81.37 0.50 18.30% 0.22:1
Ks 7s 41.11 58.40 0.50 41.20% 0.70:1
2c 9d 20.75 78.75 0.50 20.90% 0.26:1

Flop:
RESULTS: Cards %win %lose %tie Pot equity Odds
6c 3c 20.12 79.88 0.00 20.10% 0.25:1
5c 4c 5.12 94.88 0.00 5.10% 0.05:1
Ks 7s 58.90 41.10 0.00 58.90% 1.43:1
2c 9d 15.85 84.15 0.00 15.90% 0.19:1

Turn:
RESULTS: Cards %win %lose %tie Pot equity Odds
6c 3c 27.50 72.50 0.00 27.50% 0.38:1
5c 4c 0.00 100.00 0.00 0.00% 0.00:1
Ks 7s 60.00 40.00 0.00 60.00% 1.50:1
2c 9d 12.50 87.50 0.00 12.50% 0.14:1

Trikflow77

03-01-2005, 10:46 PM

#23 (permalink)

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point proven

Fnord

03-01-2005, 11:24 PM

#24 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by superdave

As you said, limit poker absolutely is a drawing game. A drawing game based on smart draws, not "boy, I hope I get lucky with my 6 out" draws.

I can make that call with 4 outs and yes, I always hope to get lucky.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superdave

On a 3/6 table, you need to give these guys some credit.

Not when the pre-flop action looks like that. One or more players clearly aren't playing good poker.

Quote:

Originally Posted by superdave

I can see the justification for the preflop call, but with my game I still would not have throw in $6 on it.

I thought pre-flop was the worst street. I probably should fold.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

cartilago77

03-01-2005, 11:43 PM

#25 (permalink)

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I'll give you credit... you make good points, you always back up your points with intelligent justification, and I know from reading other posts that you play good poker.

I just happen to disagree in this situation (insert intelligent justification here_____, wait I have none). Maybe the "odds" were there the entire way, maybe you made a good call, used your instinct well, etc., but with my game I would not have played it the same. That is the beauty of poker I guess. It would not be too much fun if everyone played the same way. I am in no way trying to take anything away from your abilities as a player. I disagree, you showed good reason why you chose to do what you did, and I will now quit my arguing.

I thought that the point of posting hands was for critique, not just for everyone to say "way to go." I disagreed, you countered with great posts, and I think everyone (including myself) will take something into their game from reading this. I look forward to seeing more of your hand histories in the future and wish you nothing but profit on the tables.

Zinnsoldaten

03-02-2005, 02:03 AM

#26 (permalink)

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11-1 I'll play pretty much any soothed in that position.

What Shadows We Are, And What Shadows We Pursue

elipsesjeff

03-02-2005, 04:20 PM

#27 (permalink)

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Hand 2: All I can say is, FINALLY! Geez, how long have you been calling this preflop for? Since Nate's post on 2+2? I've been trying to get you to play suited junk in the blinds more for so long. I can't tell you how much I love calling raises with suited junk in the BB, especially with loads of limpers like this hand. You're implied odds are huge here. You only have to call 1 small bet to get into a hand of 12. Remeber, your blind is a sunk cost here, but by calling, you are able to a part of a pot worth twice as much for the same risk. Think of it as sitting at a 12 person table with you on the button to which EVERYONE has limped in. Of course you play any two suited there...

And, I'm glad I didnt get caught up in this whole argument thing, all i want to know is:

Dave, if you have odds to call, why would you ever consider folding?

The difference between players with little experience and players with lots of experience is the reasons to play. I want a reason to call here, I want a reason to call every single hand I get; pot odds here (not to mention incredible implied) more than warrant this call on the flop. Thats the point of including backdoor draws as a part of odds in your decision making.

As a comparison, less experienced players look for a reason to fold. They are afraid of losing and will fold way too often. I can tell you are an experience player Dave, but I think you've spent too much time on 2+2 and not enough time actually thinking about the reasons you are in the hand. I hope you never fold if you have odds to call down, you've only justified our arguements with your own reasoning. Maybe you should take another gander at SSH's odds section; it sounds like its been a while since you've read it.

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