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Demiparadigm
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12-28-2005, 09:06 AM
Post subject: SH v 2p2'rs
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#1 (permalink)
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (4 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx
Preflop: Hero is Button with 9 , T .
1 fold, Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.
Flop: (7 SB) 3, 8 , J (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.
Turn: (4.50 BB) 8 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.
River: (6.50 BB) 6 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises,
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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By your play it looks like you put him on overcards; do you have a read that he can make the "big laydown". Meh, you only have to be right 1 out of every 7-8 times you try it, but I think this is spewage because the river is a non-threatening card. If I am in the SB with say A,K, I will suspect the river didn't help you and would have to decide if you had me beat from earlier streets. With this board shorthanded and HU, SB still probably calls your raise.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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If I were SB I'm calling this river with any Ace or pair if I have any read on you. Raising the turn might be better for you as then you give him two chances to fold instead of only one here.
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
If I were SB I'm calling this river with any Ace or pair if I have any read on you. Raising the turn might be better for you as then you give him two chances to fold instead of only one here.
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But he knows that I know that he calls here with A high...
So if I expect him to call with A high, he should fold, right?
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Demiparadigm
Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
If I were SB I'm calling this river with any Ace or pair if I have any read on you. Raising the turn might be better for you as then you give him two chances to fold instead of only one here.
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But he knows that I know that he calls here with A high...
So if I expect him to call with A high, he should fold, right? |
Good luck with that. 
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|~|ypermegachi
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: emo-kid
Posts: 3,580
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i prefer raising the turn instead of the river, probably only because you're semi-bluffing instead of pure-bluffing, and like jeff mentioned, 2 chances to fold him.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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Raise the turn, follow through on the river.
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Poker is freedom
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Demiparadigm
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Party 6 max
Posts: 1,602
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I understand the concept behind the turn raise. However, I feel this is a standard raise with any draw. It pairs the middle flop card and puts a flush draw on board. My opponent knows this is a great place to bluff, so he will often call the turn raise with just over cards. Remember this is only 4 handed, so often one pair is good at showdown. By the river, the pot is large enough that I have trapped him into calling the river with any good ace or better. I only need to be betting a busted draw 10% of the time for his call to be correct. For this reason I really don't like the turn raise. I think the best play may be to raise the flop, repping a pair, then continue on the turn.
Regardless, calling the turn and raising the river keeps the pot small, and once the river comes, he has no reason to call with just overcards trying to spike a pair. There are no more cards coming. So, his only concern is whether I am capable of bluff raising on the river. Again, I only have to raise this river with a busted draw 10% of the time for him to call, but a river stone bluff is much more rare than a turn semi bluff on a draw heavy board. This gives him a tough call with even a pair <6.
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To win in poker you only need to be one step ahead of your opponents. Two steps may be detrimental.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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First off, you give your opponent way too much credit. He merely could be protecting his blind with any two cards man, as many 2+2ers would do.
Secondly, after looking at this board again, I'm not waiting for the turn to raise, I want to raise this on the flop, and I'd probably cap it if it would give a free river card.
Finally, the difference in raising the river over any other street is that it no more is a semi-bluff, and is hence considered a sole bluff. Semi-bluffs don't have to work nearly as much as a full bluff would. Your raise on the river would have to make your opponent fold more than 25% of the time for this to be correct. However, raising on the flop would only require your opponent to fold roughly 13% of the time for this raise to be correct, if not more if you count your implied odds in this situation. On a blind steal, you do not want your opponent to be 1) in control when you don't have a made hand, 2) seeing the river card for cheap and 3) have any money in on the final street which would tempt him to call. By the end of the hand, he only needs to win 10% of the time for his call on the river to be profitable, and given the likelihood of many opponents to not be able to bet/fold even King high at shorthanded 6 max games, your raise is -EV on the river.
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