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Chopper

05-11-2007, 04:48 PM Post subject: set hunting?

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i know its profitable to play sets fast, very fast. lots of good things happen to sets. first, they get called like i still cant believe. they crush TP. they make draws a bit expensive to chase w/o much of a read. and, of course, they turn into boats..that still get paid. a limit thing, i know.

but unlike NL, it doesnt seem as correct to call raises with them oop. am i terribly wrong. it seems you need a couple of others calling the raises, too. not hard at my lower stakes.

please correct me if i am wrong on the following...

in a NL game, if i call a standard 3X raise HU, its not too bad. i will hit my share of sets, and depending on how i play the set, can get paid very well, or only moderately. often times i collect the 10X the raise to make it a profitable play. and i love just calling AA with 33, and taking a stack.

but, in limit, i dont see that opportunity. i see calling the raise w/ 33 and betting the flop (say, 1BB pf, then the .5BB on the flop). if the opponent is smart, he will only call w/o a strong hand. i bet turn (1BB), he only calls. i bet river (1BB..3.5 total from me), and he only calls.

i collect about 3.5 BBs for my set...thats it? given that the sets only hit about 8% of the time, that doesnt seem profitable to chase the villain's pfr with a baby pair...unless, another one or two come along.

because of pot control, it seems like i need more participants in a hand to make the set-hunting profitable, as a whole. i do it, too, and love it when i see a set that couldnt get at much of my stack because i had position and could keep closing the action.

am i wrong?

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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NWNewell

05-11-2007, 05:07 PM

#2 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

You are exactly correct.

I like to get about 5:1 on my money preflop. That way I am sure my implied odds will be around 8:1 or more for when I do hit my set.

I almost never call raises with low to mid pocket pairs for set value... from almost any position.

From late position I will sometimes call a raise if there are enough people in to ensure I' getting at least 5:1 on my money (aka, not counting on calls from the blind to make the 5:1, that's just gravy)

Likewise, I rarely limp in form early or middle position if I'm at an aggressive table because I don't want to have to call a raise in a pot with less than 5 players in it (obviously, it is correct to call the raise for one more bet if you are already in. But you can save money if you can accurately predict/assume this ahead of time).

Also, from the blinds I like 5:1 on my money as well. So, if I'm in the BB and someone raises, I need one more person to coldcall before I'll call the raise.

Basically, my rule is if I can get 5:1 on my money preflop, then I set hunt... if not, then I dump it.

You can deviate from this a little if you can count on a lot of the players at your table going to far postflop. Then you might be able to drop that down to 4-4.5:1. But in general, I stick to 5:1

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

euphoricism

05-11-2007, 07:57 PM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

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My rule is, if I have a good seat, 3bet any pocketpair. But I was always pretty maniacal with my pocketpairs. It was good for the image, but you have to be absolutely flawless postflop.

Definitely 3bet 77+ unless villain is a rock and you can fold anything below without too much thought unless youre getting proper odds (which often only occurs in the SB and occasionally in the BB).

A lot of your money will come from people who do cold call with 22-88 looking for sets and dont have the odds to do so.

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Chopper

05-11-2007, 10:14 PM

#4 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

one thing i am NOT post flop is...flawless.

lol.

but i'm getting better.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Chopper

05-12-2007, 03:36 AM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Likewise, I rarely limp in form early or middle position if I'm at an aggressive table because I don't want to have to call a raise in a pot with less than 5 players in it (obviously, it is correct to call the raise for one more bet if you are already in. But you can save money if you can accurately predict/assume this ahead of time).

what do you do on that aggro table when you raise, get RRed, and it caps? do you still call 2 sb's cold and see a flop? do you even call one more? i assume you call at least the 3bet.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

NWNewell

05-13-2007, 03:25 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWNewell

what do you do on that aggro table when you raise, get RRed, and it caps? do you still call 2 sb's cold and see a flop? do you even call one more? i assume you call at least the 3bet.

Well, you almost can.... but you need to be a little more careful post flop....

I'm not calling two more bets preflop, or even one more bet) unless I've got AT LEAST 5:1 odds for each decision.

The interesting thing is that calling one more bet will almost always be correct. You raise, and get re-raised and have to call one more to see a heads up flop... that's 5:1 (not including the blinds) So you are good pretty good. you can call.

And like wise, when calling a RR and cap, you are looking at 5:1 by the time the RR calls the cap for one more bet. If one of the raisers is not in the blind, then you are a little better (5.5:1 odds).

But the reason I say almost is because the big problem is your implied odds are not as good now and you are up against two very strong hands that could get an over set or possibly draw to a bigger hand. I'm not all that excited about a Qs7sTh flop that hit my 77. There are too many draws and possible over sets. Obviously you will not be up against the over set all that often. But if you have a hard time recognizing when your bottom set is beat and letting it go, then you can lose a a pretty penny. I personally don't enjoy calling two bets against RR and capper unless there is a fourth poor soul that got catch in there for two bets or more somewhere.

But hey, that's just me.... I know I usually lose a pretty penny to an overset. Call me greedy, but when I combine that with the worse implied odds, I want better than my usually 5:1.

And on the flip side of things, as euphor said.... If I'm at a tighter table, with seemingly tight blinds. I'll raise a lot of pocket pairs from even earlier positions to try and pick up the blinds. Even if this doesn't work all the time, at a tighter table, you can also try to pick up the HU pots with a cbet. And if that doesn't work, you have 4 cards to try and pull you out of your failed blind steal attempts. But if the table not all that tight, I'm more into set hunting mode.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

Chopper

05-13-2007, 07:53 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i have to laugh a bit. i see all the time that people say, "when i'm at a 'tighter' table..." that should be your key, if you are at lower stakes SH (say below 1/2), to FIND ANOTHER TABLE. to me, sitting at a tightish table, when there are others available, is horrible table selection...something we should be pretty good at online. sorry, but i dont adjust to tighter games online...I LEAVE THEM.

however, like you, i have definitley found i have a difficult time learning when my bottom set is beat (by another set). thats a toughy because the donkeys are here playing fast with worse stuff often enough that i adhere to a rule of "dont fold sets on dry boards." hell, i dont fold them on coordinated boards because of the odds to hit my 10 outer to quads or boat.

by the time a flush/str8 completes, i usually have already comitted myself to the hand due to odds, and just check/call until i can pour on the gas again.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Ragnar4

05-14-2007, 03:19 AM

#8 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

If you're going to call a raise with small pockets, you need at least 4 other players in, including you (total of 5 guys seeing the flop). (Directly from SSH)

Limping from UTG in an aggressive table is just about suicide, because if you limp and it gets raised behind you, you are stuck calling unless there is a re-raise, but you aren't getting the correct price. You're just hoping to hit and try to get your bets back.

But limping at a very loose passive table isn't so bad. Hit your set, get paid big money. Although at the loose passive table, you may get drawn out on by random 1 card straights, and nasty stupid 4 high club flushes and stuff like that.

I

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

NWNewell

05-14-2007, 03:23 AM

#9 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Well, yes... in general... you are absolutely right. But depending on the site, the time of day you are looking to play, stakes, and be it FR or SH, you don't ALWAYS have the option of moving to looser tables.

Also, while tight games are never a preference... playing at them once in a while for the experience is not a bad idea. Because as you move up in stakes, tables typically get tighter and tighter.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

Chopper

05-14-2007, 12:47 PM

#10 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i couldnt agree with you guys more. i just had to say my peace about table selection.

and its funny, too, about the 1 card str8's etc hitting on the river, no doubt. it frustrates me to no end because i come over from NL to dabble, and hammer certain principals home. and stuff like that is easier to bet out of the pot in a NL game. therefore, fewer suckouts. which is still maddening, but it doesnt happen 10 times in the same night...by, seemingly, the same villain.

limit is a easier game to get spewey in by tilting, imo. thats another reason i like it, and use it for my NL game, forces me to control my emotions better. not that i'm great at it when the variance bug is biting my ass.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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