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Set of Aces played slow

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Fnord

04-30-2005, 12:28 PM Post subject: Set of Aces played slow

#1 (permalink)

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Pacific Poker 5/10 10 handed.

I have

in the CO

Folded to LAggy MP who calls, I raise, button folds, SB calls, BB 3-bets, MP calls, I cap, everyone calls.

4 to the frop with $77 in the pot

Checked to MP who bets, i call, SB calls, BB calls

4 to the turn with $97 in the pot

Checked to MP who bets, i call, sb folds, bb raises, MP 3-bets, i call, BB calls

3 to the riva with $187 in the pot

BB checks, MP bets, I raise, BB folds, MP 3-bets, I cap, MP calls

MHIG!

Everyone tell me how much you hate this hand and why...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

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honsheung

04-30-2005, 03:09 PM

#2 (permalink)

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I advocate raise in flop to thin the field, a flush danger is too haunting

btw, congratulation!

Fnord

04-30-2005, 03:20 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by honsheung

I advocate raise in flop to thin the field, a flush danger is too haunting

Ahhh... now we get to the heart of the matter...

Lets say that the SB and BB are fishy and at least one of them will call quite often to something drawing dead or near dead to us. Also, consider that any pocket pair is getting pot odds to draw to a set if they don't know I have a bigger set.

Am I better off getting 1 or 2 over-calls drawing really thin or putting in another bet against someone who is probably drawing quite live to a flush?

Mike Caro brings up the point that sometimes by trying to knock out players you knock out the guys you WANT to call...

Then again, consider the odds the SB/BB call drawing near dead anway or the odds MP 3-bets.

I guess the short of it is that I really don't care about protecting against the flush draw on the flop because his odds are too good. On the turn it's almost a moot point because the flush got there and I think someone has it. I really don't care much about any other draws because they are so thin if not dead.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

honsheung

04-30-2005, 03:27 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by honsheung

I advocate raise in flop to thin the field, a flush danger is too haunting

In my interpretation, you are saying that you want to ram the fishy or losse callers as much as possible by a CALL in flop ,right?

But I don't want to do this, my rule is , as slow play of a very strong hands, but potentially beaten, is not good.

It's disastrous to have set aa beaten by a flush ,right?

Fnord

04-30-2005, 03:38 PM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by honsheung

It's disastrous to have set aa beaten by a flush ,right?

There is nothing I can do about the flush draw. He has odds to draw and I'm not getting a lot of value for every SB he calls on the flop. There is also a very good chance no one has the flush draw.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

honsheung

04-30-2005, 03:47 PM

#6 (permalink)

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Some people may not be willing to call 2bets for a flush draw , though with pot odds.
Moreover, it is 4 people see the flop, so high card shoul prevail to win, flush should be at its limited value, a tradional view.

So i will raise definately, to guarantee i MUST win this hand , at the very least.

Fnord

04-30-2005, 04:19 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by honsheung

Some people may not be willing to call 2bets for a flush draw , though with pot odds.

On what planet? Good players rarely fold them (small pot, paired board and such.) Bad players because they calls with worse all the time. Flush draws don't fold, accept it and get on with life. Given this, I'm much more interesting is maximizing the amount of money going into the pot from people who aren't drawing to a flush.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

04-30-2005, 04:30 PM

#8 (permalink)

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Let's just say it's been a day...

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is Button with Q

, Q

.
3 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Fnord raises, 2 folds, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 2

, 6

, T

(3 players)
MP1 checks, MP3 checks, Fnord bets, MP1 folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (4.66 BB) Q

(2 players)
MP3 checks, Fnord bets, MP3 calls.

River: (6.66 BB) K

(2 players)
MP3 checks, Fnord bets, MP3 raises, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

Results in white below:
MP3 has Js Ac (straight, ace high).
Fnord has Qc Qs (three of a kind, queens).
Outcome: MP3 wins 10.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+1 with J

, J

.
UTG calls, Fnord raises, 1 fold, MP1 calls, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (10.33 SB) A

, A

, 8

(5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Fnord bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls, BB folds, UTG folds.

Turn: (6.66 BB) J

(3 players)
Fnord bets, MP1 calls, MP3 calls.

River: (9.66 BB) 5

(3 players)
Fnord bets, MP1 calls, MP3 raises, Fnord 3-bets, MP1 calls, MP3 caps, Fnord calls, MP1 calls.

Final Pot: 21.66 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Jc Jh (full house, jacks full of aces).
MP1 has Ac 6h (three of a kind, aces).
MP3 has Js As (full house, aces full of jacks).
Outcome: MP3 wins 21.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with J

, J

.
Fnord raises, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button 3-bets, 2 folds, Fnord caps, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13.33 SB) 5

, 9

, J

(3 players)
Fnord bets, MP2 raises, Button calls, Fnord 3-bets, MP2 caps, Button calls, Fnord calls.

Turn: (12.66 BB) 3

(3 players)
Fnord bets, MP2 raises, Button calls, Fnord 3-bets, MP2 caps, Button calls, Fnord calls.

River: (24.66 BB) Q

(3 players)
Fnord bets, MP2 raises, Button 3-bets, Fnord caps when he really should think about calling because he puts the Button on QQ here, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Final Pot: 36.66 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Jh Jc (three of a kind, jacks).
MP2 has Ts Qc (one pair, queens).
Button has Tc Kc (straight, king high).
Outcome: Button wins 36.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG+2 with J

, J

.
2 folds, Fnord raises, 3 folds, SB calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (5 SB) 3

, 8

, 9

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB 3-bets, Fnord calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) J

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord raises, SB 3-bets, Fnord calls.

River: (11.50 BB) 7

(2 players)
SB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

Results in white below:
SB has Kd Ad (flush, ace high).
Fnord has Jc Jh (three of a kind, jacks).
Outcome: SB wins 13.50 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with 9

, 9

.
1 fold, UTG+1 raises, Fnord 3-bets, 1 fold, MP3 calls, CO calls, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (13.33 SB) 7

, T

, 9

(5 players)
UTG+1 checks, Fnord bets, MP3 raises, CO calls, UTG+1 calls, Fnord 3-bets, MP3 caps, CO calls, UTG+1 folds, Fnord calls.

Turn: (13.66 BB) 8

(4 players)
Fnord bets, MP3 raises, CO 3-bets, Fnord calls, MP3 caps, CO calls, Fnord calls.

River: (25.66 BB) 4

(4 players)
Fnord checks, MP3 bets, CO raises, Fnord folds, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 29.66 BB

Results in white below:
MP3 has 8d 8c (three of a kind, eights).
CO has Ad Js (straight, jack high).
Button doesn't show.
Outcome: CO wins 29.66 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with 9

, 9

.
UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, Fnord raises, 1 fold, MP3 calls, 1 fold, Button calls, 2 folds, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: (11.33 SB) A

, 4

, 9

(5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Fnord bets, MP3 calls, Button calls, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls.

Turn: (8.16 BB) 8

(5 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 checks, Fnord bets, MP3 folds, Button calls, UTG folds, UTG+1 calls.

River: (11.16 BB) K

(3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Fnord bets, Button raises, UTG+1 3-bets, Fnord caps because he's laid down more sets on the river in the last 2 days than he has in the previous year, Button calls, UTG+1 calls.

Final Pot: 23.16 BB

Results in white below:
UTG+1 has 7s Qs (flush, king high).
Fnord has 9h 9d (three of a kind, nines).
Button has 5s Ts (flush, king high).
Outcome: UTG+1 wins 23.16 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP3 with 3

, 3

.
4 folds, Fnord raises, 3 folds, BB 3-bets, Fnord calls.

Flop: (6.33 SB) J

, J

, 3

(2 players)
BB checks, Fnord bets, BB raises, Fnord 3-bets, BB caps, Fnord calls.

Turn: (7.16 BB) K

(2 players)
BB bets, Fnord raises, BB 3-bets, Fnord caps, BB calls.

River: (15.16 BB) Q

(2 players)
BB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 17.16 BB

Results in white below:
BB has Kd Kh (full house, kings full of jacks).
Fnord has 3s 3h (full house, threes full of jacks).
Outcome: BB wins 17.16 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 3

, 3

.
UTG raises, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Button calls, Fnord calls, 1 fold.

Flop: (11 SB) 3

, T

, 8

(5 players)
Fnord bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, Button calls.

Turn: (8 BB) 6

(5 players)
Fnord bets, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls, Button calls.

River: (12 BB) 2

(4 players)
Fnord bets, UTG calls, MP2 folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 15 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has 3h 3s (three of a kind, threes).
UTG has Js Jd (one pair, jacks).
Button has Tc Jc (flush, jack high).
Outcome: Button wins 15 BB.

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is SB with 3

, 3

.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 3 folds, Button calls, Fnord completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) A

, 3

, 6

(4 players)
Fnord bets, BB calls, UTG+1 folds, Button folds.

Turn: (3 BB) 5

(2 players)
Fnord bets, BB raises, Fnord calls.

River: (7 BB) 2

(2 players)
Fnord checks, BB bets, Fnord calls.

Final Pot: 9 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has 3s 3d (three of a kind, threes).
BB has 4d Ad (straight, six high).
Outcome: BB wins 9 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Element187

04-30-2005, 04:37 PM

#9 (permalink)

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ouch those hand histories is like watching a horror movie.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

ChezJ

04-30-2005, 05:01 PM

#10 (permalink)

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fuuuuuuuck. and i thought i had a bad day. well i did, but yours was downright godawful!!

regarding the set of aces hand... i've been reading TOP and what i got out of it was that sometimes you know you can't possibly knock out a guy who has correct odds to draw, but you still should raise to reduce his odds. it's better to give him slightly favorable odds than to give him very favorable odds. in your case, if those limpers were truly fishy, they may have called your raise and increased the pot size. but i don't know how people play at 5/10.

ChezJ

MannerBoy

04-30-2005, 05:05 PM

#11 (permalink)

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huh .. and still not on tilt ?

it was painfull i guess

Fnord

04-30-2005, 05:27 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by MannerBoy

huh .. and still not on tilt ?

it was painfull i guess

I tend to "micro-tilt". After a string of horrible beats I'll play an extra hand or put in that river cap out of spite. Pretty quickly after that I'll see what I did and get my shit together.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

04-30-2005, 05:30 PM

#13 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

i've been reading TOP and what i got out of it was that sometimes you know you can't possibly knock out a guy who has correct odds to draw, but you still should raise to reduce his odds. it's better to give him slightly favorable odds than to give him very favorable odds. in your case, if those limpers were truly fishy, they may have called your raise and increased the pot size. but i don't know how people play at 5/10.

Hard to say without PlayerView while I'm 5 tabling. I just figured I make much more money per bet going into the pot from a non-flush bet on the turn. Then consider they may go to war on bigger streets if they catch a better hand. I pitch the "don't slow play" slogan too, but thinking it throught I decided to go with the call on the flop planning to wake up on the turn. Then the flush hit scrapping that plan...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

04-30-2005, 05:32 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

fuuuuuuuck. and i thought i had a bad day. well i did, but yours was downright godawful!!

I still made 1BB/100 on Party yesterday (net $163.86), but dropped $400 on Pacific.

Really drives home how much limit is about the little things...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Chicago_Kid

04-30-2005, 10:02 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by honsheung

I advocate raise in flop to thin the field, a flush danger is too haunting

btw, congratulation!

I hate the MP 3-bet on the turn...and I like your flop call.

If you raise the flop, that's not going to knock out a flush draw.

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Chicago_Kid

04-30-2005, 10:11 PM

#16 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by ChezJ

Not sure I understand this. By raising you aren't lowering his odds of winning, you are putting more money in when it's likley that you are still ahead. So by raising you are pushing you edge while allowing him odds to call down to the river.

This one made me think alot about whether to call or raise the flop. Since you know they will call your raise, why not wait for a safe card on the turn and then look to raise?

"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"

Room

04-30-2005, 10:59 PM

#17 (permalink)

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Posts: 197

I like the flop call. Anyone acting behind has odds to draw to their flush. You dont care about any non-diamond on the turn. Plus I like calling so you can raise the turn when any non-diamond hits. Turn is interesting. You're first to call with players behind to act so that's always uncomforatble. But I think going for overcalls here when you are either way ahead or way behind is safe.

Fnord

05-01-2005, 02:07 AM

#18 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Room

But I think going for overcalls here when you are either way ahead or way behind is safe.

I'm not way behind. I have lots of outs to fill up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

honsheung

05-01-2005, 01:38 PM

#19 (permalink)

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yep, a call in flop is sensible provided that the one who are drawing flush will call anyway. Jam the pot if the turn cards don't hit!

But may i ask a question?
If the preflop wasn't capped ,let's say only 2 small bets each player, will a raise in flop be good enough to drive out the one who are drawing flush ?

Fnord

05-01-2005, 02:14 PM

#20 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by honsheung

If the preflop wasn't capped ,let's say only 2 small bets each player, will a raise in flop be good enough to drive out the one who are drawing flush ?

Usually. I don't think it's a logic thing for most players, they see the raise and bail without more than 4 outs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Room

05-01-2005, 03:14 PM

#21 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by honsheung

If the preflop wasn't capped ,let's say only 2 small bets each player, will a raise in flop be good enough to drive out the one who are drawing flush ?

You need roughly 3-1 pot odds to call a flush draw. Therefore, there are times where waiting to the turn to raise, when the bets are larger in relation to the pot. will protect your hand better (plus there is only 1 more card to come). When the pot is capped preflop, you cant really protect your hand since the pot is so large.

Fnord

05-01-2005, 03:35 PM

#22 (permalink)

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Having only one card to come is key. For every $1 the flush draw is putting in a lot less of it comes back to him.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

05-02-2005, 06:18 AM

#23 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by chezj

but i don't know how people play at 5/10

Huh?

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

jmontis

05-02-2005, 06:38 AM

#24 (permalink)

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Fnord is completely in the right for slow playing his set, everyone damn well knows the flush draw isn't going anywhere, so why not play it as deceptive as possible...

heck, i'm a no-limit player and understand this

take your ego out of the equation and judge the situation dispassionately

Fnord

05-02-2005, 06:41 AM

#25 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by jmontis

heck, i'm a no-limit player and understand this

In No-Limit slow play has more merit because you can make up missed bets very easily on later streets. In limit the betting structure makes this difficult.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

05-02-2005, 03:23 PM

#26 (permalink)

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If this was party poker I would be more likely to agree with your slow play here. However Given it is pacific and the action you got on both the turn and river, I'm sure you missed some bets here on the flop and the turn, I count possibly 2 SB on the flop and 2 BB on the turn. At the pacific table they are going to call 2 bets like its nothing and slowplaying here will just cost you bets. Considering you cant see what your opponents had its rather hard to see if they will fold. I'm guessing one of them had the nut flush or a flush, the other I'm thinking nailed his set on the turn. If that were the case then quite possibly the guy with 99 would have folded to 2 bets on the flop and you were right.

Were you going to raise here on the turn if the flush didnt hit?

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

honsheung

05-02-2005, 03:39 PM

#27 (permalink)

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I will raise in turn if the flush didn't hit.
And like Fnord, call in flop .

Fnord

05-02-2005, 03:53 PM

#28 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

If this was Party Poker I would be more likely to agree with your slow play here. However Given it is pacific and the action you got on both the turn and river, I'm sure you missed some bets here on the flop and the turn, I count possibly 2 SB on the flop and 2 BB on the turn.

Pacific 5/10 plays more like a Party 2/4 or 3/6 game. Also without PlayerView it's hard to get a handle on just how bad specific players are while I'm running 5 tables.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Were you going to raise here on the turn if the flush didnt hit?

Yes!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

DoGGz

05-02-2005, 05:03 PM

#29 (permalink)

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Well, after reading this It makes my bad run last week feel easier. At least I'm not the only guy that can get crushed hand after hand...

Element187

05-02-2005, 05:11 PM

#30 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by doggz

Well, after reading this It makes my bad run last week feel easier. At least I'm not the only guy that can get crushed hand after hand...

i thought you were a no limit junkie.. ahh another has come to the darkside.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

DoGGz

05-02-2005, 06:10 PM

#31 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Element187

Quote:

Originally Posted by doggz

Well, after reading this It makes my bad run last week feel easier. At least I'm not the only guy that can get crushed hand after hand...

i thought you were a no limit junkie.. ahh another has come to the darkside.

Yea, but I still read all the forums. I pride myself in being adept in all forms of poker

Element187

05-02-2005, 06:22 PM

#32 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by doggz

Quote:

Originally Posted by Element187

Quote:

Originally Posted by doggz

Well, after reading this It makes my bad run last week feel easier. At least I'm not the only guy that can get crushed hand after hand...

i thought you were a no limit junkie.. ahh another has come to the darkside.

Yea, but I still read all the forums. I pride myself in being adept in all forms of poker

perhaps but i will own you in war.

"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls

honsheung

05-04-2005, 07:23 PM Post subject: Re: Set of Aces played slow

#33 (permalink)

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Posts: 153

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Pacific Poker 5/10 10 handed.

I have

in the CO

Folded to LAggy MP who calls, I raise, button folds, SB calls, BB 3-bets, MP calls, I cap, everyone calls.

4 to the frop with $77 in the pot

Checked to MP who bets, i call, SB calls, BB calls

4 to the turn with $97 in the pot

Checked to MP who bets, i call, sb folds, bb raises, MP 3-bets, i call, BB calls

3 to the riva with $187 in the pot

BB checks, MP bets, I raise, BB folds, MP 3-bets, I cap, MP calls

MHIG!

Everyone tell me how much you hate this hand and why...

Very keen to investigate this situation
When we have set a but there is potential danger of flush in the flop .

So now the conclusion should be CALL in flop and jam the pot when turn no hit ?
Any counter arguements.? Very like to study this hand .

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Set of Aces played slow

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