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Chopper

06-02-2007, 04:42 AM Post subject: session review

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

allright, guys. i am posting some hands i thought were interesting from both a preflop and postflop perspective. i figure you guys will have some things to say to confirm/deny my thoughts. if its a standard play, please humor me, as i am checking my thought processes in the hands. this will be a couple of posts to keep things relatively short. thanks.

sorry about the lack of reads, i played over 500 hands, and am having trouble remembering why i even selected some of these at the time...

hand 1:PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K

, Q

.
3 folds, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, 3 folds, SB calls, BB calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 4

, K

, Q

(4 players)
SB bets, BB calls, Hero raises, MP2 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, Hero calls.

Turn: (10 BB) K

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, BB calls.

River: (13 BB) T

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, MP2 calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 16 BB

i assume from mp, the raise is ok since it opens the pot? and i call the 3bet since i close, and get 11:1?
on flop, i raise not so much to thin field, but because i think i am a good bit ahead here, and am trying my best to protect/charge the flush draw. yes/no?
and only call the 3bet because the pot is HUGE, and i wont bust a flush out now. only hope is to hold up. should i cap here anyway?
turn boats up. no more playing, this one goes to the hilt...no free cards when i know they arent going anywhere. hoping to get a raiser again. dont want to miss value by going for a c/r. correct?

hand 2:PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9

, 9

.
2 folds, Hero calls, 2 folds, CO calls, 2 folds, BB checks.

Flop: (3.40 SB) Q

, 5

, 9

(3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, CO calls, BB 3-bets, Hero caps, CO calls, BB calls.

Turn: (7.70 BB) J

(3 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, CO calls, BB calls.

River: (13.70 BB) K

(3 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, CO bets, BB calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 16.70 BB

set on flop w/ flush draw. no cute stuff here. trying to take it down..or make guy behind me call two cold...twice...and he does. wow.
straight completes, but i give the raise another shot to see if i boat up. too aggressive? i only call a 3bet if it comes here.
river completes straight, flush, and fails to deliver boat. c/c ok? or is this a b/f? or b/c? please help with details here. i figured pot was way to big to fold off a set for one more, but with cold caller on my left, to scary to bet into knowing he was prolly drawing to something that hit. easy read?

hand 3:PokerStars 0.25/0.50 Hold'em (10 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, A

.
4 folds, MP2 calls, 1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (10 SB) K

, 7

, 5

(5 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB calls.

Turn: (9 BB) 2

(4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP2 folds, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (12 BB) 3

(3 players)
SB checks, Hero checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 12 BB

i know no one is leaving to a raise here pf, but dont i have to? for equity's sake? and look for an opportunity to force mistakes while watching for aggression back at me?
cannot believe the cold-calling on the flop. this should only make me slow down if a draw hits, right? if i get floated by a set, so be it?
i felt this was a horrible check on river, but the flush hit, and no one seemed like they were leaving before. i wasnt going to fold to a bet, but didnt want to get raised. too weak? missed value? i cant help but think so. i think i should b/c river here.

oh, and one generic pf question. i seemed to get raised or 3bet directly from my left A LOT last night when i held AKo. i should open-raise AK from anywhere i assume? only exception i see is that table is sooo loose pf that they are calling two cold all night. in which case w/ offsuit i should be concerned about pot control? however, when raised, with AKo should i fold if no one else does? seemed i raised to "thin" and it never worked. still got 4 callers. how can i fold AK when getting 7:1, and 12:1 (in some cases)? it just gets expensive when you AK misses what feels like every time. would have been a lot less expensive to call or limp myself, and keep the pot down for the flop. i'm sure that's the wrong thinking, just a matter of circumstance based on last night's misses. yes?

thats it for now. thanks.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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Ragnar4

06-02-2007, 08:55 AM

#2 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

Hand one.

Standard. You MAY have been able to go for a check-raise on the turn here. Especially since the aggressor was directly to your left. So he bets, and you turn it all into 2 bet spew.

Hand 2 depends on your read on CO. If he's a smart player. He would have folded for the flush draw on the flop because you destroyed his odds with the raise. Meaning he may be letting you two go to war with a worse two pair or set. Which would mean you need to raise and re-raise the river. If CO is a donkey, or you have no reads, B/C is good here, and C/C is good here too.

Hand 3. Nothin' wrong with being aggro with aces out of the BB. I think Big Spenda made a good point. I don't like raising with big-offsuit holdings, because if they miss, they are very marginal, and you still want to win the pot.

The fact that Hold'em is a showdown game (for the most part) forces us to have a hand when we get to the final card. Aces is a decent pair, and holds up rather well, even with a few other players in the pot. Bloating the pot from here, doesn't chase out other hands, but that's because you do have the equity edge to a point where raising is a correct decision here. You're going to win a considerable amount more than your fair share of times with aces. KQo, or AQo or even AKo needs to catch top pair with a good kicker in order to gain the equity edge postflop that you had preflop. Something that happens only 1/3 times to the flop.

Which is why it's correct to raise AA out of the BB, and Incorrect to raise KQ off out of the BB (against several other players.) . Because 100% of the time, you'll have top pair top kicker with AA. but only 33% of the time you'll have top pair good kicker with KQo. Push your equity edges when you have them, even with a bloated pot. But give yourself the opportunity to force the players to bend to your will, when they are on very poor draws, when there's a good chance you WON'T have the equity edge after the flop in other situations. Such as AQo and KQo, and in cases against more than 3 other players AKo. blah blah blah... you've heard it all before. lol

Anyway. As played on the flop. This is an interesting situation. Do the math, and I think you'll see that a smoothcall on the flop, and a re-raise on the turn better protects your hand than re-raising the flop. Someone is betting out, but you have to ask yourself, Ok this clown is betting, who's gonna fold with 10bets in the pot? they can call to everything but a gutshow. You call. Betchya a quarter that Button folds anyway.

Then on the turn, since it was just a call fest, SB leads out again, and you raise, and you take away the odds to call to everything but a flush. The flush still gets there. I know. BUT the straight that 45 completed didn't have odds to get there. Here you adequately protected your hand.

As played. Nothing wrong with it. But there was another way to protect your hand. I also don't think bet/call is bad on the river either. But I may be wrong about that.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

bigspenda73

06-02-2007, 02:48 PM

#3 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

In hand 1 if you don't cap the flop I think you need to let the betting get back to MP2 on the turn. I cap the flop and bet the turn.

@Rag (re: hand 2) we really do not destroy his flush odds. He's still getting 3.5:1 immediate on the call and 4.5:1 effective (assuming the flop better calls the raise) only needing 4:1. Don't just look at the bets, look at the pot as well and his gross implied odds. He's getting 5:1 on the turn on a 4:1 prop as well meaning he's playing perfectly fine.

Hand 3 I bet the river here a lot expecting calls from Kx all day. I would blank out CO's river action and just put Hero...

NWNewell

06-02-2007, 03:04 PM

#4 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Hand 1 is great.

Hand 2 is fine. It sucks and you are probably beat. With both the possible flush and one card straight. But with over 14:1 pot odds, I don't think this is any place for a "big laydown".

Hand 3.... I often struggle with this river. It is difficult for me it image two more or more players are playing post flop this way without a flush draw. But with only a couple callers, it does happen often enough that I think a b/f on the river is the best play. But I have to hold myself at gunpoint to do it. I usually want to check. And if I bet and get raisaed, I usually want to make the 1bb call to show down a pot this big.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

Chopper

06-02-2007, 09:31 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

thanks guys.

hand 1: i won, obviously.
hand 2: the friggin flush showed from the twice, cold-calling idiot showed J7s...dont feel there was anything else i could do.
hand 3: i held. which is why i was pissed about missing value on river. i figured i should b/c and at least make someone think i may have popped the flush, and bet my draw the whole way. it looks as though they would have folded to a bet on the river.

any answers/advice to my "generic" question at the end? if i was correct to bust out a raise in hand 1 w/ KQo to thin field, it must be better w/ AK. i was just wondering what you guys do when raised behind from immediate left, and everyone else starts calling cold? obviously, you dont want a 3bet, and re-open the betting, but do you call and see a flop? thats my dilema, if its 5+ handed w/ a big off-suit.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

NWNewell

06-03-2007, 01:37 AM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

I wouldn't worry too much about pot control with hands like AK. Reason being that the draws you are really worried about are not going anywhere for one bet post flop (straights, flushes), weather it is raised preflop or not.. Other draws are usually far enough behind your TPTK that you are happy to have them continue to contribute.

The best thing you can do is try to case out the drawing hands (SC) preflop.

At least that is my opinioin.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

bigspenda73

06-03-2007, 01:44 AM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

Quote:

Originally Posted by NWNewell

Hand 1 is great.

explain plz

NWNewell

06-03-2007, 01:56 AM

#8 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

My bad splenda.... I didn't follow the action very well (and didn't see your post).

I agree with splenda, With MP2 3betting the flop, and BB calling, you can either cap the flop and be guaranteed an additional sb from each player. Or you can smooth call and c/r the turn and possibly get an extra bb from each. They way you played it, it looks a lot like the king helped you. You could have easily scared all your action out. On the other hand, most players are going to call an additional bet once they already put one in on the same street, regardless of how they feel about their chances of winning.

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

Chopper

06-03-2007, 02:20 AM

#9 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

i had the feeling the way i played the K on the turn absolutely DID scare away action. they just were not convinced i boated up. perhaps the raise pf is all that saved me. but i doubt anyone down here thinks like that.

i agree with the advice. thanks.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Ragnar4

06-03-2007, 08:24 AM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

@Rag (re: hand 2) we really do not destroy his flush odds. He's still getting 3.5:1 immediate on the call and 4.5:1 effective (assuming the flop better calls the raise) only needing 4:1. Don't just look at the bets, look at the pot as well and his gross implied odds. He's getting 5:1 on the turn on a 4:1 prop as well meaning he's playing perfectly fine.

I said you take away all odds EXCEPT for flush odds. 4, 5, and 6 outs calls aren't getting where they want to go. even 8 outs is what 6-1 against? Not quite what he needs to get.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

bigspenda73

06-03-2007, 03:17 PM

#11 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Hand 2 depends on your read on CO. If he's a smart player. He would have folded for the flush draw on the flop because you destroyed his odds with the raise.

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