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Scenarios where we fold to 3bets PF

  
 
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bigspenda73
Old 03-10-2009, 09:02 PM     Post subject: Scenarios where we fold to 3bets PF #1 (permalink)  
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First of all, I never fold to a 3bet when I'm in position. So, this conversation should always assume we're OOP vs. the 3bettor. Common scenarios are SB vs. BB and CO vs. BTN. If you fold to a 3bet when IP 100bb+ deep I don't believe you.

This analysis should be two-fold based off our hand and our opponent, I'm going to ask some questions and you guys can answer them with some detail please:

Finally, let's assume 100bb stacks effective to makes things slightly easier.

Opponents:

1. If our opponent 3bets a wider range than AAxx should we be more or less likely to call a 3bet PF?
2. If our opponent tends to always stack-off with AAxx no matter the board texture are we more or less likely to call a 3bet?
3. If our opponent tends to give up a lot unimproved post-flop should we be more or less likely to call a 3bet?

Hands:

1. What are the worst hands to call a 3bet with?
2. You open in the CO and the BTN 3bets. We hold AKJ7 one nut-suit, call or fold?
3. You open in the SB and BB 3bets. We hold 3567 one suit, call or fold?
4. You open AQ77 one non-nut suit and get 3bet, call or fold?
5. What are the best hands to 4bet light with PF?
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lockpull
Old 03-11-2009, 01:08 AM #2 (permalink)  
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Opponets:
1. I would be less likley to call. I would much rather play against a 3Bet against someone who only does it with AAxx. If his range is wider (depending on how much wider) then it can be very easy for me to be OOP with no idea where I am really at in the hand without hitting the flop extremley hard which you cannot always count on.
2. I will call a three bet from a player like this everytime. Overvalued AA is where a lot of people lose money when they do not take board texture into account. And if I have a chance to stack off when I am ahead on the flop (draw wise or hitting the flop well) against someone that usually now depends on the board pairing in some kind of way I like it.
3. This one is a little harder for me. I would think that I should be less inclined to call because that basically kills my implied odds if I do get a hand that cracks his. And being out of position when I bet to try to take it right there and he calls/raises i'm in a tough spot.

Hands:
1. Ones that you have little chance of hitting Flush/Flush Draw, hands easily outstraighted (yeah I said outstraighted), two low-med pair, trips, quads. Basically ones that have you hoping for 3-6 very specific cards to fall in order to make a strong hand.
2. I fold for the same reasons as #1 above
3. I call this one. BB probably has a hand that 3567 has good equity (god I hope I am using that term right in this case) against and since we have 4 of the same suit that takes one flush we have to worry about almost down to 7 outs. Plus I doubt he is doing this with an of the cards that make our straight.
4. I fold this one OOP too. He could easily have our AQ drawing near dead and the 77 could get us into some real trouble if it hits.
5. Hmmmm... I am assuming Double suited broadways, all same suit low straight draws (4567,6789).

Please let me know how this all sounds to you. I do well in tourn omaha but not so hot in cash games.


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bigspenda73
Old 03-11-2009, 01:29 AM #3 (permalink)  
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when I say one suit I mean that two of our cards are the same suit, not all four.
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lockpull
Old 03-11-2009, 02:14 AM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73
when I say one suit I mean that two of our cards are the same suit, not all four.
oops, rookie mistake. That doesn't change my answer much however. I still flat and look at low suits as blockers. I would think he will be pretty aggresive on the flop so I can most likley extract a good amount from him if I do hit.


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drmcboy
Old 03-11-2009, 06:15 AM #5 (permalink)  
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awesome thread, can I add one:

6) If you have a frequent raiser/3 bettor to your left who is a good player, what hands do you still raise?

Assume you have a good reason, say two drunk fish, for staying at the table. Do you just play very passively unless the fish are in the pot? Are there hands you might open limp?

Re opps:

1) less. probably we should 4 bet more with QQxx, KKxx and Axxx Kxxx nice rundowns as I think about it although I don't do that nearly enough.
2)
3) I call more since we can win UI on paired boards, BW boards etc. if we get raised on the turn we can just give up, even with hands we might have called with with no read (say bottom two with gutter)



I will come back for the hands, great thread
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Acerbic
Old 03-11-2009, 07:44 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Haven't played PLO that much, so bit of a novice, but I wanted to see how my thought process was in answering this questions. Feedback, criticisms would be nice if anyone has the time.

Opponents:

1. Less, much tougher to play out of position vs a villain who has a wider range of hands.
2. I would call with probably everything (except, trips, quads, all one suit), as you risk so little preflop to play for stacks and you always know where you are in the hand.
3. I would actually call more. Because if he tends to give up unimproved, you can easily check the flop and he will check behind, a bet on the turn (card dependent) could win the hand. Also I think he will cbet less because of the fear of getting checkraised.

Hands:

1. Trips, quads, all one suit. I tend to rarely play 2 pairs in the hand as well. ei. TTJJ, if you hit a straight draw, it will only be open-end, just not great, if you hit a set, your other pair is pretty much worthless.
2. Hmmm...this one is pretty close, that is a pretty big gap J7 borderline dangler...I think I fold
3. I think I fold this too. This rundown hand makes too many sucker straights, which out of position can be disastrous
4. I fold this, I don't think you can flop well with this hand, and if you do you will probably get no action. What's best case screnario, 732 with your nutflush draw? No one is playing that flop with you.
5. I think any double suit rundown cards, but I think this is kinda dangerous area because if you opponent comes over the top, now you are looking to commit a large portion of your stack (30% - 40%) out of position.
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drmcboy
Old 03-11-2009, 08:37 PM #7 (permalink)  
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All one suit hands can still be pretty good if they are rundowns and they are MUCH better than trips/quads. Also I hope you are not opening with trips/quads? Thread is regarding calling a re raise OOP (we call that a 3 bet) after you have raised pre flop.

If you raise a two pair hand I think you should continue vs a 3 bet. Open folding something like 2255 is fine but once you raise and have been 3 bet you should pretty much always continue, you have good odds to flop a set assuming some sort of implied odds - say vs opps 1 & 2 above. Opp 1 will c bet a lot and then you can shove over, and obv opp 2 will pretty much always pay your set off. Also ranges will be wider in general since there is more money in the pot so even if you don't flop top set you'll see a lot more hands like top and bottom, TP plus over pair, etc.
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drmcboy
Old 03-11-2009, 08:37 PM #8 (permalink)  
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@ the hands - I am assuming we are playing vs opp 1, otherwise I think those tenancies are more important than our hand.

still thinking on 1, 2 and 5

3 I call although if this happens a lot I might start limping instead. I would not felt bottom two+gutter types here like I might vs a earlier position 3 bet though

4 I fold and this is def I hand I take off the open list if I'm seeing a lot of 3 bets IP or OOP.
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Acerbic
Old 03-12-2009, 04:35 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drmcboy
All one suit hands can still be pretty good if they are rundowns and they are MUCH better than trips/quads. Also I hope you are not opening with trips/quads? Thread is regarding calling a re raise OOP (we call that a 3 bet) after you have raised pre flop.

If you raise a two pair hand I think you should continue vs a 3 bet. Open folding something like 2255 is fine but once you raise and have been 3 bet you should pretty much always continue, you have good odds to flop a set assuming some sort of implied odds - say vs opps 1 & 2 above. Opp 1 will c bet a lot and then you can shove over, and obv opp 2 will pretty much always pay your set off. Also ranges will be wider in general since there is more money in the pot so even if you don't flop top set you'll see a lot more hands like top and bottom, TP plus over pair, etc.
Oh...you're right if we're calling 3bets then we are opening, and I would never be opening with trips or quads.

I am new to plo so I am trying to keep myself in "less marginal" situations right now.. Basically hit really strong flops and draws. I still feel slightly uncomfortable with bottom set or bottom 2, I assume with time you start to know when you are good in those particular spots.
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drmcboy
Old 03-12-2009, 05:06 AM #10 (permalink)  
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yep, that's a good instinct in limped pots or raised pots but esp at the low limits my guess is a 3 bet will be AA almost always. Up to 1/2 it's AA from at least 75% of players.
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Ification
Old 03-18-2009, 01:45 AM     Post subject: Re: Scenarios where we fold to 3bets PF #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Opponents:

1. If our opponent 3bets a wider range than AAxx should we be more or less likely to call a 3bet PF?
2. If our opponent tends to always stack-off with AAxx no matter the board texture are we more or less likely to call a 3bet?
3. If our opponent tends to give up a lot unimproved post-flop should we be more or less likely to call a 3bet?

Hands:

1. What are the worst hands to call a 3bet with?
2. You open in the CO and the BTN 3bets. We hold AKJ7 one nut-suit, call or fold?
3. You open in the SB and BB 3bets. We hold 3567 one suit, call or fold?
4. You open AQ77 one non-nut suit and get 3bet, call or fold?
5. What are the best hands to 4bet light with PF?
I also assume we are talking about when opp pots a 3bet.

This is also all IMO, I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just the way I would play it, so feel free to nitpick as you please since I am starting a move to playing more Omaha and need to adjust my game BIG TIME!

Opponents

1. A little harder since we have no post-flop read: but I'm definately calling tighter since we have to play in the dark against a wider range and we'll just be giving up a lot flops if we dont hit big, and that gives him the chance to just position own us.

2. This guy is obviously a donkey and I am calling very wide since we'll stack him so often when we bink the flop.

3. Again I think I am calling pretty wide here since what we give up in preflop equity we gain 10 fold in postflop fold equity.


Hands

1. Anything that would win a Badugi hand (if I dont have at least one high suit it just seems to makes life tougher), 3 card rundowns with a dangler, usually I chuck pretty much anything I cant piece together at least 5 or 6 good HE hands with if Im oop in a 3bet pot....but thats just me


2. If I think he can fold on overpair I actually would call here since we have a blocker to almost any set he wants to hit and a lot of redraws if we do hit a a high card flop. If he's felting AAxx or KKxx on a 579 board I muck pre.

3. My thinking is reversed here, If I think he can fold an overpair our implied odds are shot if we hit. Fold. If he felts high pairs often enough, I'll call.

4. I fold...best case scenario we flop a set and stack AA, If we pair our ace we're usually gonna fold out KK or it'll be no good to AAA or AK. if we flop the nuts or nut draw with our suit or AQ we're generally not getting paid.

5. Is it bad i hardly ever 4bet pre?
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