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Chopper
Old 06-30-2008, 07:19 PM     Post subject: scenario... #1 (permalink)  
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Chopper
in light of recent threads plotting which is better b/3b or c/r, here's another i always have a question about...

hero holds Kh7h in BB. two players limp (MP and BTN), and hero raises. both call.

(6.5 sb and 3 players to flop) 8d 5h 4h and hero is 1st to act.

common sense tells me to bet and build a pot. maybe i take it down immediately w/ a cbet. if raised (even by a set), we prolly jam the hell out of it and cap because 12 of our outs beat any set.

but, i wonder how much better a c/r is here? dont we want to gamble on a big pot here w/ all these outs? we have an overcard that is likely clean (KT+ likely raises pre), a solid flush draw, and a gutshot. possibly 15 outs, but likely 10+ clean. i dont think we mind giving a free card here once in awhile, do we? after all, we dont beat much, so protection is kinda dumb.

barring any reads, which is more EV? leading and building + stealing with cbet...OR...c/r to get a big pot going with 10+ outs and maybe getting a free look for a c/r on turn if flop checks around?

if leading is best, can someone give me a scenario where "c/r to build pot" is smart?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 07-01-2008, 05:56 AM #2 (permalink)  
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asdpikas
OK,
the difference regards relative position towards likely flop bettor.
In this scenario you raised preflop and thus are the likely pf bettor. You must bet, as you cannot count on villains to bet if you check, plus if you check, MP checks, bt bets, and you raise, you are probably kickin out MP by facing him with calling 2 cold.
With this much equity on the flop you want to keep all villains in while you make them pay.

Now consider this:
MP raises, BT calls, you call in BB. Same flop.
Now you should check hoping MP bets, cause then the action will probly go: you check, mp bets, bt calls, you raise...
both of them call since its only one more small bet, instead of two cold.
Or this:
MP limps, BT raises, you call, MP calls.
Now you should bet, hoping for call by MP and raise by BT (preflop aggressor) so that again 2bets get in on the flop with noone facing 2cold ever.

If you wanna protect, you go for the c/r in ways that face some of the field with calling 2bets cold, thus shortening their odds if they're drawing and showing more strength.
If on the contrary you wanna build, you go for the c/r or bet in the way that will least likely face anyone with having to call 2cold.

does that make sense?
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
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socal1111
Old 07-01-2008, 07:02 AM #3 (permalink)  
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socal1111
It's all about relative pos. to flop better, as was stated in last reply.

Another example of building:

Limp, limp, Hero limps Ah4h (SB), BB raises. All call.

FLOP... 4s,Jh,8h
You Ck, BB bets, limper(s) call, you raise.

Same hand, this time you're in BB. Btn. was pre-flop raiser after limp, limp. This time you lead flop, get 2 callers, Btn raises (building pot for you). You only call, not blowing others out.

{ some players would 3-bet, maybe cleaning up outs, but that's different subject}.
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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Chopper
Old 07-01-2008, 05:00 PM #4 (permalink)  
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heres where the "growth curve" is kicking in. i understand the relative position thing...most times...i think. in other words, what you all have said makes perfect sense for those scenarios.

but, at my level, players call two cold almost as often as they call one bet. AND, if i lead flop, hoping for pf raiser to raise, he often doesnt. he just calls right along with everyone else...which is assanine to say the least.

the hard part, for me (at this level i think) is to find WHERE the raise is coming from. because it seems its more a factor of AF than who has initiative because they are so soft relatively speaking.

that said, are there other ways to exploit these "typical" table conditions that you can think of?

i seem to make VERY thin value bets right now because i know they dont fold. i dont semibluff oop often anymore, like my example, because they call. i WILL semibluff more as a value raise with big draws w/o hesitating to face ALL players with two cold...because most of them will call with any piece including Ahi sometimes.

dont get me wrong, its not that frustrating. its just an adjustment that has to be made. i can really play some marginal stuff, on occasion, due to the fact i never get fully charged. but, i never get fully paid, either.

in said example, i led...got called. the turn was Kd, of course, i led again...got called. and river bricked, i led...they folded. and, sadly, that is standard behavior for these guys. 7BB raised pot and hands that supposedly warranted a turn call didnt warrant a river call. "all hail the donkeys."

thanks again for the help.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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socal1111
Old 07-02-2008, 06:22 AM #5 (permalink)  
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socal1111
There's not a whole lot you CAN do, but bet, bet, bet. Against these soft, ABC players, ABC back... but like you said, "very thin value bets" go way up on your priority list.

If BTN raises, but won't C-bet, then all you've got is the lead. You're not playing live, so you can't "take a peek to your left," and see if someone's giving away their action.

The greatest news against these players, is when they DO fire, you know exactly where you are. Gotta love that.

"Fancy" will come when you're up against winning LAGS-- ohhh so much fun!
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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Chopper
Old 07-02-2008, 02:04 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
The greatest news against these players, is when they DO fire, you know exactly where you are. Gotta love that.
i dropped a two pair hand to a random straight card just last night because the station "woke up" on the river. and drop one pair hands quite often to the "turn c/r" from them. i'm rarely folding a set/straight, but there are times i know i should have because of WHO raised me.

but, also welcomed the action with the flopped nut straight when this guy pumped the turn on me w/ the sucker end. i had to laugh while he kept firing into DEEZ NUTZ!

good times.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 07-02-2008, 02:50 PM #7 (permalink)  
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asdpikas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
The greatest news against these players, is when they DO fire, you know exactly where you are. Gotta love that.
i dropped a two pair hand to a random straight card just last night because the station "woke up" on the river. and drop one pair hands quite often to the "turn c/r" from them. i'm rarely folding a set/straight, but there are times i know i should have because of WHO raised me.

good times.
Reads are VERY important, cause it goes both ways. In limit, paying someone off will cost u 1-2 bets. Folding the best hand will cost u many more.
On the other hand, in order to sustain a good winrate you need to make the correct folds against these players to save those extra 1-2 bets too. The passive players are great for the reason stated. If they come alive, they got something.
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socal1111
Old 07-02-2008, 09:59 PM #8 (permalink)  
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socal1111
Quote:
Originally Posted by asdpikas
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
Quote:
Originally Posted by socal1111
The greatest news against these players, is when they DO fire, you know exactly where you are. Gotta love that.
i dropped a two pair hand to a random straight card just last night because the station "woke up" on the river. and drop one pair hands quite often to the "turn c/r" from them. i'm rarely folding a set/straight, but there are times i know i should have because of WHO raised me.

good times.

Reads are VERY important, cause it goes both ways. In limit, paying someone off will cost u 1-2 bets. Folding the best hand will cost u many more.
On the other hand, in order to sustain a good winrate you need to make the correct folds against these players to save those extra 1-2 bets too. The passive players are great for the reason stated. If they come alive, they got something.
Agreed, but your 1-pr. shouldn't be an auto-muck on turn, depending on the hidden outs avail. If brd. pairs on end, your big pair may be good... and probably have to pay-off. We, very often, have more outs than we think sometimes. Paying-off isn't always a sucker play in these big pots.
"We don't stop playing because we get old. We get old because we stop playing!" -Doyle
 
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