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trainheavy
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01-17-2007, 12:39 AM
Post subject: SC & Axs
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11
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For low limit hold em, what's the general consensus about playing sc and Axs? Most of the strategies that I've heard of advocate playing tight and being patient. Are they only of value with a lot of people in the hand? Should I open limp with them, or are they to be better played in late position? As far as sc go, are we playing more middle sc and up, or are we considering even low sc (56 and lower)? I know my questions are general, and things depend on the situation and table, but I'm just talking about generally speaking. I'm just trying to obtain some more knowledge. Thanks.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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SCs and Axs's are very very table dependant. If I can limp from EP and get 6 callers, theyre playable. But if I open limp from MP and only get 1-2 callers, well, I probably should have just folded. Open limping in late position is a losing play almost every time except for very few and very specific situations.
hmm... well, the difference between 45s and 89s is relatively small. Theyre really played much the same way - that is, for the flushes and the straights, not for pairs. The difference between 45s and TJs is exponentially larger because you'll often get flops like J 4 8 and, for better or for worse, feel your hand is best. It also has much more chance to draw to the nuts rather than the bottom end of a straight (45 on a 678 board ain't as nice as it looks.)
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trainheavy
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Posts: 11
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Ok, thanks. I have a few more questions then. So, obviously, they're playable from late position with a bunch of limpers then, correct? And what about say someone raises from EP, and there are a bunch of callers? Then what's the general play?
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NWNewell
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL
Posts: 283
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Fold them when facing two bets cold every time.
As far as Axs and suited connectors go for me. ...
I very, very rarely play them up front in EP, even at a loose table. It would have to be almost perfect table conditions for me. Meaning that I know that everyone at table is very loose, and I know for sure they are very, very passive (if I'm not >8o% sure there will be multiple callers 4-5+ with on raise, I'm not playing them up front).
If you ask me, there are not only too many players behind me that could have a hand, but you are also trying to to predict that most players behind you will call, and ONLY call. So, unless the table conditions are excellent and you have a very good feel for the looseness and passiveness of the table, I would stay away from them in EP.
In middle position, I also would not open limp with these. If no one has called in front of you, then it is less likely that you will have a lot of players in the pot, since there are only a few left to act. And, if you open limp and it gets to the button or cut-off, you are more likely to see a raise form the late position player (players will often raise more hands in late position when faced with a single caller than in a multi-way pot). And getting into a heads up situation with a pre-flop raiser that has position on you is the farthest thing from what you want with these hands. So, in middle position, I like to see a caller (preferably two) before I limp in with these hands (even at a looser, more passive table).
In late position, again do not open limp. As euphoricism said, open limping in late position is almost always an inferior play. You don't have enough callers (implied odds) to play drawing hands like SC, and if you are going to play a hand, you should almost always open raise to take full advantage of your position and possibly steal the blinds. You don't really have anyone left to call behind you so, you need to make sure you have several callers in the pot to play Axs or SC. The nice thing is that you can find out for sure if you have enough people to play them or not. You don't have the guessing game about who will call and will it be raised like you do up front.
And as far is if it is raised... Even if there is a raise and a bunch of callers, you should be careful about playing these hands even in late postion. Part of the reason these hands play will with many limpers is due to the implied odds from players calling and going to far post flop when you hit your straight or flush. But if you have to call two bets, your implied odds are almost cut in half (instead of limping for $1 and winning $13, you are now cold calling for $2 and winning maybe $19. Implied odds went from 13:1 to 9.5:1). And on top of that, instead of a bunch of players liming (and basiclly telling you "ok, I have a hand I want to play, but it's not great. Let's see if I can hit the flop before I contribute more money"), you have a player raising and others calling (and now telling you, I have a very good hand and want to raise from EP or MP, and others saying, my hand is also good enough to call two bets). So, the relative strength of you hand goes down.
By the same token, if you feel the pot will be raised behind you, you should not limp in (you are basically assuming the same implied odds as if someone already raise infront of you since you are already assuming that you will need to call two bets by the time the prefop betting is completed). However, if you assumed that the pot would not be raised behind you and limped in, but to your suprise it was raised, you should call that one more bet (especially if you are closing the action) since you have proper odds to call (your assumptions were wrong on when you limped in and as a result it was a losing decision, but now you are faced with another totaly different decision with different odds. And if there are a lot of other people that have called the raise, then it is correct for you to do the same for 1 more bet).
So, in summary:
- Be very, very careful and selective about the situations where you limp in with these up front.
- Limp in from MP with these hands when you know the table is relatively loose and passive and you've already got a couple of callers ahead of you, and you suspect that you will probably get a couple more with no raises.
- Limp in from LP only if you have serveral limpers in the pot.
- Do not cold call with these hands, regardless of postition. And do not limp in if you think it is likely that the pot will be raised behind you.
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NWNewell
Fold them when facing two bets cold every time.
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With 4 coldcallers and 67s on the button you're telling me you wouldn't want to see a flop?
Honestly I would stay away from anything lower than 87s right now. If you're at a low level I would have to generalize and assume that your postflop play is truly what needs improvement. Without being very good postflop you lose a lot of value from these hands which is why you play them in the first place.
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Coolidge
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Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 13
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by NWNewell
Fold them when facing two bets cold every time.
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Bleh. Folding a hand like 56s or 67s, for 2 bets in a multiway pot is pretty bad. UTG raises, 3 cold callers and you have 67s OTB...this is an easy call. You have position and a hand that makes a monster when it hits.
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