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spoonitnow

05-28-2006, 09:20 PM Post subject: SB open raise range

#1 (permalink)

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When it's folded to you in the SB, what are your minimum requirements for raising (assuming you treat it raise/fold)?

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pokerfanatic

05-28-2006, 09:30 PM Post subject: Re: SB open raise range

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Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

When it's folded to you in the SB, what are your minimum requirements for raising (assuming you treat it raise/fold)?

Well it depends...

If the guy folds too much out of the BB I raise almost any 2, if the guy plays to much out of BB i tighten my range down a bit...

In a blind structure like 1/3 is going to play bit different then 1/2, 2/3, or 2/5...

The structure changing hand ranges very slightly but not extremely...

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Xanadu

05-28-2006, 10:25 PM

#3 (permalink)

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I use pretty much the same range as from the button, but of course it depends on who is in the BB. You get a small discount on the steal investment from the SB, but this is more than compensated by being OOP for the whole hand. Also, if BB likes to raise a SB limp, throw in about 50/50 limps with the stronger hands and 3-bet.

euphoricism

05-29-2006, 12:23 AM

#4 (permalink)

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How often does BB have to fold to make raising any two correct?

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euphoricism

05-29-2006, 12:23 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Also, the blind structure makes a difference.

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Xanadu

05-29-2006, 12:58 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

How often does BB have to fold to make raising any two correct?

Good question, and there is an answer(which also depends a lot on what BB will 3bet with), but if BB is aware and it happens very often, it's the worst thing you could do because he will just call with any 2 and 3-bet better holdings and kill you with the combined effect of getting more money in with the better of it preflop plus position postflop.

elipsesjeff

05-29-2006, 01:56 AM

#7 (permalink)

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yeah, i dont find many players that will actually fold any two, at least not at my levels, or anything or anyone i've seen the last 6 months.

If you can play well postflop and get the max out of your hands, marginal or monster, then your stealing range can be larger then the button. From the button you are putting in $20 in a $15 pot whereas in the small blind you are putting $15 in a $15 pot. Thus, You need to have a better hand like 60% of the time on the button and 50% of the time in the Small blind.

Does that translate into 40% steal for button and 50% steal in SB? I have no idea. Also, these are in terms of a 1/2 blind structure at 10/20.

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Miffed22001

05-29-2006, 03:46 AM

#8 (permalink)

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stop thinking start raising!

me personally, the typical any ace any king any sooted and connected anything that isnt toal trash really.

Id go with the above though that not many people are folding bbs anymore but ive seen enough players cold calling where i would expect them to 3bet

elipsesjeff

05-29-2006, 03:46 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Miffed22001

I've stopped stealing for the time being with hands like 87s in shorthanded games(and by stopped I mean probably still do but think before I act). Malmuth stated in his poker essays that when playing shorthanded, your opponent expects you to raise and therefore you are most likely behind in a HU situation. He also said he'd much rather raise with a hand like K5o than 87s for that reason.

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pokerfanatic

05-29-2006, 04:00 PM

#10 (permalink)

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I hate the mind set of "defend" or "steal" any 2 cards... the situation has to be right for that thought to be right... unless you have a guy that steals 90%... then I can see the "defending any 2" theory working OK... if defending “any 2” is a bad idea and I can make an argument based on EV charts that it’s dumb, then how in the world would stealing “any 2” be profitable? Now I can make an argument that if the guy folds his blind 90% that I raise 93% of my hands of course that 3% extra is not going to be complete shit all the time but it will get me paid sometimes…

I just think stealing and defending is more read dependent then a lot of people think…

At least that’s how I approach the situation, an example that comes to mind is the I had AQo in CO, I opened raised and a 30/20 called out of his BB, the flop was 925 rainbow he checks I bet her raises now (obvious defense line to me), I actually 3 bet his ass because I felt if he had nothing he c/f the turn, well turn is a 6, he checks like expected then calls HMM ok? Well river blanks out think it was a J, he checks and I check behind, he shows 63s for the win… so lets see he put in 1sb PF, 3sb on the flop with 6 high no draw that’s 4sb that he shouldn’t have in the first place then 1bb while ahead… so lets see I put in 2bb when I was ahead and only 1 when behind… do you see how this is dumb against a good player that knows the lines you are going to run in defense?

I just think in the long run his play coasts him a lot more money then just giving up his bb with that hand…

Miffed22001

05-29-2006, 06:28 PM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Im assuming from this that you just complete HU in he blinds with 87s? I like that as much as stealing as im still convinced too many players make too many bad calls in marginal situations, expecially in blind defence and that they dont 3bet enough.
As a point, if your limping into the bb how often are we talking if its HU in the blinds and how many times are u being auto-raised by the BB?
My problem with weak tp hands like Kx Qx Ax is that ppl tend to defend their bb more now and wont 3bet preflop or raise on later streets with medium strngth tp's like KT QJ that they tend to defend with. That is/was something that cost me in HU blind play, and defending from button aggression as well

elipsesjeff

05-29-2006, 07:26 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Good question, 78s HU in the small blind (and 56s, 76s too fall in this same example, possibly 89s) is an interesting situation. Malmuth was specifically talking about button raises though in that situation and not small blind.

I have limped the small blind into the big with an intention of auto-betting any flop at the 10/20 level, and usually its to guys that wont fold post flop even with ace high to the river (i.e., someone like me for the most part). Against raise/fold type blind players like most decent blind players, I tend to raise here and peel a flop and turn. If i hit a pair I may try and induce a bluff out of him on the turn by check/call.

I don't have enough HH with suited connectors specifically in the SB in blind situations to really make any sort of statement about it. If i'm behind i'm not far behind so i'm not folding and even if he raises you still have odds to call and hope you spike something.

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outphase

06-01-2006, 08:44 PM

#13 (permalink)

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at 3/6, my range is tighter than say at 2/4 or 5/10 mainly because of the 1/3 set up

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euphoricism

06-01-2006, 09:57 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Someone tell me the answer to my hypothetical. How often would BB have to fold for a raise with any two from the SB to be immediately profitable?

The math is too complex for my florida public-education head to handle

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chardrian

06-01-2006, 10:02 PM

#15 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

I am not goot with math (that's why I went to law school).

But... From the SB you are risking 1.5 SBs to win 1.5 SBs when you raise in a battle of the blinds. So it seems to me you need BB to fold just over 50% of the time to make it immediately profitable with any 2.

Xanadu

06-02-2006, 04:18 AM

#16 (permalink)

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Hmm, I'm too tired right now to do the math, but I can outline the thought process. When you ask how often the BB needs to fold to make raising with any 2 profitable, what you are really asking is how often does the BB need to fold to make raising with the worst possible HU hand to be profitable. The worst hand HU is 23o. 23o has a 32.5% equity against a random hand heads up. It will have a much worse equity against the range that will call you. A simplified estimation would be to just work off the preflop bets and that no bets are won or lost postflop. You need to decide on a % range that BB will 3-bet, and then work the equities for that range at 3 bets each (of course you have to call), and then find the calling range that equalizes the equities with the bets you win from a fold.

I'll run through it with approximations, assuming opponent will 3-bet the top 15% of hands. Looking at my HU chart, It looks like the top 15% range has about a 65% equity against a random hand. 230 is significantly worse than a random hand, winning about 2/3 as often, so we win about 23% of hands when 3-bet. Suppose we get called with the top 50% of hands. The 35% below the first 15% has an equity of about 54% over a random hand. We'll give 230 a 30% win rate here. The remaining 50% you win.

So, we have on the win side

folds + 2bet wins + 3bet wins:
.5*1.5 + .35*.3*2 + .15*.23*3= +1.06SB

On the loss side,

2bet losses + 3bet losses:

.35*.7*2 + .15*.77*3= -0.84SB

So we stand to profit .22SB raising 230 from the SB if BB 3-bets top 15% and folds 50%.

So we can now estimate break even. Assuming the 3-bet range stays the same, we need to increase losses by .11SB and decrease wins by .11SB on the calls. BB calling another 8% comes pretty close to doing this. So, my estimated answer would be BB needs to fold between 39-45% of the time for this to be profitable assuming you can manage not to lose anything postflop.

euphoricism

06-02-2006, 06:01 AM

#17 (permalink)

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Thankee. That helps lots, and confirms my suspicions. Youre goot.

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