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the river donk lead..

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Chopper

02-26-2009, 09:58 PM Post subject: the river donk lead..

#1 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

now before you all jump my ass over this, i read this in a book. i saw this example and thought it would be a good spot for one...for VILLAIN!!

imagine YOU are villain. hero is aggressive and doesnt pass on many opportunities to steal a HU pot. if you have Qweak or mid pair, the river here isnt a bad spot to fire the donk. reasoning: you are calling a bet anyway and if hero has crap (missed draw or Ahi), he likely wants to check behind. that 5 is a little scary, but hero probably doesnt like it either. and when you suddenly come alive on it, you may fool him into folding Qmedium or perhaps better. hero cant check behind if you do have value and, again, wont likely raise without a super strong hand because villain may be leading and hoping to 3bet.

bear in mind this is a cake hh. the converter tells you its NL, but its not.
Cake Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (5 handed) - Cake-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($10.80)
BB ($17.55)
UTG ($3.80)
Hero (MP) ($14.50)
Button ($10.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A

, A

1 fold, Hero bets $0.50, 1 fold, SB calls $0.40, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.25) 5

, 4

, Q

(2 players)
SB bets $0.25, Hero raises to $0.50, SB calls $0.25

Turn: ($2.25) 9

(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.50, SB calls $0.50

River: ($3.25) 5

(2 players)
SB DONKS!, Hero ???!!!

Total pot: $4.25 | Rake: $0.20

i dont know what you guys think, but thats the way the book presents it as a concept. and, had he donked (because he was passive) i may have thought about calling. i hope i would have raised him immediately.....but, then i am risking getting 3bet.

i like the move, and use it. no one else seems to. so, to answer the thread of "how often is this a river bluff?" i would say most times, its no bluff. but, you had better note the players that will use it as a block..

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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KoRnholio

02-26-2009, 10:22 PM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jul 2005

Posts: 2,165

KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Make the flop less coordinated and I might fold some weaker mid pps and ace highs against a passive villain.

As it stands, this is a missed draw often. If he is really passive I am tossing Ax but that is about it. Against most (non-passive) villains I look them up with an ace.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

DrivingDog

02-26-2009, 10:34 PM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Location: UK

Posts: 923

I don't really mind the play but you need a bluff to represent, so to speak, and a board that could have hit the villian. If he's just going to fold a missed draw to your donkbet, then you might as well check and give him a chance to bluff.

On this particular hand, I don't mind risking have my chips with a raise. I don't see too many 5's in his range, so I'm raising here against all but the goofiest preflop players. Especially guys who will call your raise with Qx or worse.

"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).

Trons

02-27-2009, 12:37 PM

#4 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2009

Posts: 86

I see this going a couple ways, either way, I think you need to raise the river.

A) busted flush draw from the flop and now the only way he's getting the pot is if you lay down your hand (Raising may or may not get him to lay down his hand but it's for value so we don't care either way).

b) He had a donk hand like A5 and got there. Either way, I still raise. I don't want people to start thinking they can get me off my great hands with a donk bet.

I just realized this is NLHE? Is that intentional or a mistake on the converters part? If intentional, raise more on PF (like 2.5-3x) and whats with the min-raise on the flop?. I'd gone with a pot sized bet to hopefully make the FD's think twice before calling. On the turn I'd go with .5%-.75% of the pot to show I'm still very serious about my hand. As played I put a missed FD as a bigger chance because of the size of your bets, he prob thinks that you're over playing AK.

What was the size of his donk bet? Either way, I don't fear the 5 and if he has it, so be it, next time he'll play the same and he won't get there and we'll stack him...I'd stack off on this board with AA everytime (in a tourney).

I originally missed the flop donkament (it's common in tourneys with TP and/or a way to find out if you missed the flop). This leads me to believe he with has something like TPTK (AQs anybody) or he actually hit his set of 9's on the flop and since you were being aggro, decided to let you have at it, but was afraid you'd check down the river so wanted to sweaten the pot a little. I till think it's TPTK and I still don't fear the 99 either...depending on the donk bet on the river...what size was it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Trons is right!

Jsttrons

Chopper

02-27-2009, 12:44 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

I just realized this is NLHE? Is that intentional or a mistake on the converters part?

see OP....in bold.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

Trons

02-27-2009, 03:36 PM

#6 (permalink)

3-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Jan 2009

Posts: 86

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

Quote:

I just realized this is NLHE? Is that intentional or a mistake on the converters part?

see OP....in bold.

Yeah, I missed that, in that case, I r/c the river. This looks more like "Crap, i'm going to lose this pot unless this guy folds" type bet then a "I have the nuts and I'm afraid he won't bet" type bet.

IF he does have it, note him and watch for that type of thing in the future. I think that knowledge is worth the extra 2 bets (especially on the smaller sites where you're much more likely to run into him again).

I also just read all your comments (I tend to skim them unless I'm looking for a read on villain so as not to change how I see the hand.

If we are villain against an aggro opponent, I'm not waiting to jam the pot on the river. I'm going to get every cent out of him I can. To me, that means check-raising the turn when the obvious draw misses and he only has about 20% to hit it (if I put him on a draw). Ahigh he's prob folding to a turn check raise and if he has me beat he'll cap it (lose 3 bets if he has you beat on the turn) vs, calling turn bet and risk getting raised on the river (in a situation where you have to call and lose 3 bets again).

To me, the value of doing this on the turn when the brick hits is nice because it reps more then one hand and if Villain doesn't have anything, then it's even harder for him to call.

The river donk bet with TPMK is weak poker since at these limits, I tend to play those hands much stronger on the flop where the bets are cheaper and I can get a better idea of where I'm at. Most AK hands won't cap this flop unless they actually have the FD, but if the opponent is aggro enough, he could single raise it because he doesn't believe you actually have it either.

Either way, in this case, Hero does have the hand I think a raise with so valuable here that I push it without thinking. IF you're beat, again, it happens, move on...

Quote:

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Trons is right!

Jsttrons

BennyLaRue

02-27-2009, 03:51 PM Post subject: Re: the river donk lead..

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2007

Posts: 646

BennyLaRue is a glorious beacon of light

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i like the move, and use it. no one else seems to.

No one else seems to like it or no one else seems to use it? I've only been concentrating on 6-max for a couple of weeks, but I see it a lot.

Chopper

02-27-2009, 04:17 PM Post subject: Re: the river donk lead..

#8 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

Quote:

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chopper

i like the move, and use it. no one else seems to use it....effectively.

No one else seems to like it or no one else seems to use it? I've only been concentrating on 6-max for a couple of weeks, but I see it a lot.

FMP

i see the donk, but not in a spot where it may spook hero. like you say, it IS either a "i hit a real hand" or "the only way i win is if you fold" lead. i am talking more about "effective use" as thin value bet when hero is liable to check behind.

obv, here, hero isnt going anywhere. but, against an aggro hero, it can be effective, imo. this apparently isnt a great example. and, the actual hand's river didnt play like this at all. he checked, i led, he called with some weak Q or pp, i cant remember which.

but, lets pretend villain has 44, hero is aggro but has Q8s.....if hero could see villain's cards, he would raise, but he wont with the donk lead. hell, he may fold to the 5. he shouldnt, but he may....and its relatively risk free since he isnt raising Q8 or JJ. and, he may fold 2nd pair to the river donk. i like to induce bluffs from aggros, too, but i dont think we want to do the same thing all the time. in terms of %'s, i think we would induce 80% and donk 20% in a vacuum. maybe 90/10. but, against a passive, this number would probably shift completely to donking the majority of the time.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

asdpikas

02-28-2009, 01:43 AM

#9 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

I donk mostly against passives on scare rivers that they will surely check behind. Not expecting a fold. Just for value. donking river hardly ever works as a bluff imo, and that is why donking for value goes up

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

asdpikas

02-28-2009, 01:09 PM

#10 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

villain is tight passive

I'm pretty sure he will check behind most of his range on that river, and only bet if he has me beat. But I beat most of his range and can fold to a river raise since pot is small and i'm sure he wont raise worse. My bet is scary since all draws came in, but that is why he will tend to make a crying call. I'm an aggro player, and after this action, i could easily take a stab with air in this situation.

Then, if i check, he checks most of the time and i lose value when ahead. If i bet, he calls most of the time (i gain value) and raises only with huge hands and i fold (i lose the same 1BB as if i c/c).

3/6 Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($192.00)
CO ($243.00)
BTN ($223.00)
SB ($60.00)
Hero (BB) ($297.00)

Pre-flop: (1.3 SB, 5 players) Hero is BB

2 folds, BTN raises, 1 fold, Hero calls

Flop:

(4.3 SB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn:

(2.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets, Hero calls

River:

(4.2 BB, 2 players)
Hero bets, BTN calls

Final Pot: 6.2 BB

asdpikas

02-28-2009, 01:13 PM

#11 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Jul 2007

Posts: 1,056

So, in general.

My range when i donk is polarized between big hands and bluffs. By adding medium strength hands into the mix, i gain value from his bluff catchers (most of his range on that board) and lose the same when behind since it's a b/f or c/c situation for me. Even tho it's a passive villain, the chance that if i check he will bluff a total whiff is not close to zero, so i wouldnt like to c/f.

"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.

Chopper

02-28-2009, 05:38 PM

#12 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Dec 2005

Location: St. Louis, MO

Posts: 4,255

you explained it better. thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by asd

I'm an aggro player...

understatement of the year so far.

LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!

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