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JJDylan
Old 07-24-2005, 10:02 PM     Post subject: River Decision #1 (permalink)  
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PokerStars 1/2 Hold'em (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is BB with Q, A.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 1 fold, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB completes, Hero raises, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls.

Flop: (12 SB) Q, 2, 5 (6 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, UTG+1 calls, MP2 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds.

Turn: (7 BB) 3 (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG+1 calls.

River: (9 BB) 4 (2 players)
[color=#CC3333]Hero ......??


Do i win this hand outright enough to bet the river?
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-24-2005, 10:07 PM #2 (permalink)  
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 why woulnd't you? You have the wheel here and if he raises you call. The likelihood of him having a 6 is very small.

The only way I would change the way you played it is check raise the flop. You have a big pot here and anyone and everyone is getting odds to call. Generally, 14-1 odds give ever pocket pair odds to draw out on you. Think about foregoing a PFR in this situation. You aren't going to get anyone to fold and you are just going to increase the size of the pot with a pot that is still very vulnerable post flop if you hit.


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JJDylan
Old 07-24-2005, 10:11 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
why woulnd't you? You have the wheel here and if he raises you call. The likelihood of him having a 6 is very small.

The only way I would change the way you played it is check raise the flop. You have a big pot here and anyone and everyone is getting odds to call. Generally, 14-1 odds give ever pocket pair odds to draw out on you. Think about foregoing a PFR in this situation. You aren't going to get anyone to fold and you are just going to increase the size of the pot with a pot that is still very vulnerable post flop if you hit.
So you would possibly limp in with this? I thought about check/raising this hand, but figured I hit my hand as well as i could have expected, and there was nothing to be scared of on the board. I guess my question about the river comes only from knowing the result...i bet, got raised and ended up losing to 66...but i guess i could have prevented that by cleaning up the earlier play like you said...
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Phyl
Old 07-24-2005, 11:04 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Think about foregoing a PFR in this situation. You aren't going to get anyone to fold and you are just going to increase the size of the pot with a pot that is still very vulnerable post flop if you hit.
Hero's postflop expectation will be higher if he checks preflop but since AQ is such a strong hand isn't this a situation where checking loses more expectation preflop than it gains postflop?

Definitely bet the river. Seriously this is an easy value bet.
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-25-2005, 05:17 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phyl
Hero's postflop expectation will be higher if he checks preflop but since AQ is such a strong hand isn't this a situation where checking loses more expectation preflop than it gains postflop?
I definately could go either way but if it were AQs I would definately advocate raising. Your real problem is the position you are in post flop, if you dont hit then you have to make a decision on what to do, such as autobet or check call.. If you don't raise then you can pretty much let it go or check/call looking for a good turn card.

I run the same line in the SB with AJo, ATo, and sometimes even AQo facing an entire field of limpers.


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ChezJ
Old 07-25-2005, 05:40 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJDylan
i bet, got raised and ended up losing to 66...but i guess i could have prevented that by cleaning up the earlier play like you said...
not really. the guy's a fish and he'll call you down with his pockets no matter what. the point of checkraising the flop would be to extract more money out of this fish on the 9 times out of 10 that he loses to you on the river.

i'm not convinced a checkraise would have worked on that flop, though, especially considering how you were pre flop aggressor. you might have ended up giving a free card and lost to two players instead of one.

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RiverMonkey
Old 07-25-2005, 05:50 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Let me take a stab at the logic behind your recommended attack for this hand. Please comment.

Why are you recommending a CR on the flop? Hand protection; but the natural question is "who is going to bet the flop for you?". I 'm guessing the argument goes something like this: if you just limp pre flop, you are going to be able to pull off the CR more often than if you raise before the flop (i.e. you're lack of aggressission pre-flop will increase the probability that someone else will bet the flop when you check it through to them). Plus, you are keeping the pot small thereby offering less incentive for people to continue on to see the turn; this plus the CR offers the best protection for you hand.

EDIT: for the CR to offer protection for your hand, you need someone in late position to bet out so that you can make the rest of the field face two bets. Otherwise, the CR will not protect your hand, but it will build the pot.
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pokerfanatic
Old 07-25-2005, 06:04 PM #8 (permalink)  
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river is an easy bet to me...
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Shark Bait
Old 07-25-2005, 07:13 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
why woulnd't you? You have the wheel here and if he raises you call. The likelihood of him having a 6 is very small.

The only way I would change the way you played it is check raise the flop. You have a big pot here and anyone and everyone is getting odds to call. Generally, 14-1 odds give ever pocket pair odds to draw out on you. Think about foregoing a PFR in this situation. You aren't going to get anyone to fold and you are just going to increase the size of the pot with a pot that is still very vulnerable post flop if you hit.
I like your suggestion about no PF raise. AQo is nice, but not that nice, and as you can see, no one is folding.

And yes, bet this river easily. call raise.

I don't really like the check raise on the turn suggestion though. That's a sneaky play with not such a good hand.
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elipsesjeff
Old 07-25-2005, 08:31 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shark Bait
Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
why woulnd't you? You have the wheel here and if he raises you call. The likelihood of him having a 6 is very small.

The only way I would change the way you played it is check raise the flop. You have a big pot here and anyone and everyone is getting odds to call. Generally, 14-1 odds give ever pocket pair odds to draw out on you. Think about foregoing a PFR in this situation. You aren't going to get anyone to fold and you are just going to increase the size of the pot with a pot that is still very vulnerable post flop if you hit.
I like your suggestion about no PF raise. AQo is nice, but not that nice, and as you can see, no one is folding.

And yes, bet this river easily. call raise.

I don't really like the check raise on the turn suggestion though. That's a sneaky play with not such a good hand.
Its check raising the flop, and with 5 opponents on there you need to do so to protect your hand. Leading out will give every gutshot and runner runner possibility to draw out on you. Like I said, with implied odds any PP has odds to draw out on you.


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