Originally Posted by Nehmer

I definately make both of these calls. In a raised pot with multiway action, you are going to make out like a bandit when you hit the set, so definately have the right implied odds for the call.

Originally Posted by Fnord

He's got a point, in hand 1 you might want to consider calling the flop and raising a safe turn card.

Big cards are going to peel anyway, and by raising the turn you're repping a stronger hand than a pair of 7s. A bigger pair will be hard pressed to play back, big cards will have to fold the turn unimproved and you might get a bigger pair to fold.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Point taken, actually, with my 'overpair' I really wanted to see a free river card and cheap showdown.

Originally Posted by Room

I think your logic is 100% correct - you want a cheap showdown. I'm assuming then, that your plan was to raise the flop, check the turn, and re-evaluate the river. However, when you have a hand that is very vulnerable to overcards, you MUST bet the turn. While it may be unlikey, it would suck if UTG+1 has just overs and we give him a free chance to draw out on us.

As Fnord said, consider a smooth call the flop, raise or bet the turn (and I think you can easily fold to a 3bet here), then check behind on the river unimproved.

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Your line is the standard 2+2 line, the only fault is you dont take into effect the liklihood of a check/raise bluff on the turn or river. Also, raising the turn you really don't establish yourself as cheap a showdown as possible, just a normal showdown.

My hand is vulnerable to overcards, but in most cases two overcards are going to call anyway and by checking behind on the turn most will auto-bet the river. This is not what everyone thinks is the 'optimal' line, as I've only been doing it recently against select opponents. With an opponent unlikely to check/raise I will lead out on the turn, with an opponent who has a good chance of check/raising I will check behind, sounds obvious, right? Not really.

I know it doesn't make any sense, and 2+2 would rather die than take a free card on the turn. If i'm checking behind the turn i'm 95% of the time auto-calling the river, and you'd be surprised how many bluffs I've caught both with baby pairs and with AK. It seems like the majority of the time this play works out for me, although it has nipped me in the butt a couple times, which arguably they may have called anyway. Then again, waiting for the turn to raise has killed me too sometimes.

Originally Posted by Room

I'm trying to avoid the situation where a marginal hand can valuebet so easily against us, or a worse hand can check to us again on the river and we gain the least from him. Does this make sense?

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

.... to check/call the flop, check/call the turn, bet/fold the river. So in esence you may still have to pay that extra bet on the river when he donk bets.