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Really, I need to say something, this was just bad....

  
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-27-2005, 07:39 AM     Post subject: Really, I need to say something, this was just bad.... #1 (permalink)  
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 Our buds on 2+2 suggest playing this hand a different way. Seriously, I dont see whats wrong with it:

Party Poker 3/6 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

UTG has :Td: :Ts:

Preflop:
UTG raises, bdk3clash 3-bets, 7 folds, UTG calls.

Flop: (7.33 SB) 4, 7, 4 (2 players)
UTG checks, bdk3clash bets, UTG raises, bdk3clash 3-bets, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.66 BB) 8 (2 players)
UTG checks, bdk3clash bets, UTG calls.

River: (8.66 BB) 3 (2 players)
UTG checks, bdk3clash bets, UTG calls.

Final Pot: 10.66 BB

How would you play this hand any differently than the way UTG did, assuming you dont know what bdk3clash's hand was?

Then read this:
[url]
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...fpart=all&vc=1


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Nehmer
Old 02-27-2005, 03:49 PM #2 (permalink)  
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I would probably play it exactly the same or maybe even cap either preflop or on the flop if the other guy is somebody I know raises a lot.
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guitarhero14
Old 02-27-2005, 03:56 PM #3 (permalink)  
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I dont think there is anything wrong with it. You have an overpair and the only thing I am worried about is a higher PP, thats it!

His 3-bet shows a strong hand pf, then another 3bet on the flop yells to me high pp, but I am still calling down at the least.
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ihategnomes
Old 02-27-2005, 05:43 PM #4 (permalink)  
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I dont see anything wrong with it. I dont believe that I would cap preflop, particularly when I am playing the rest of the hand out of position. This links doesnt work for me???
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-27-2005, 05:58 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Sorry about the link, I fixed it. My reasoning for playing it the same way is because its HU and you have an overpair. Without having a 4 flush board or something similar you should never fold HU with TPTK.


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|~|ypermegachi
Old 02-27-2005, 06:40 PM #6 (permalink)  
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in any heads up match, reads are important.

i think the line UTG has taken this hand works well vs all aggressive players.

the only time you would lay this down (on the turn) is against a very typical loose passive player who only bets and raises with the best hand (and in this case probably aces or kings).
 
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JJDylan
Old 02-27-2005, 08:26 PM #7 (permalink)  
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with TT, if i get 3-bet preflop and on that flop, i immediatly put him on a big PP....after that i go into check/call mode, which is what UTG did, so i guess, yeah...i play it the same
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Zinnsoldaten
Old 02-28-2005, 01:57 AM #8 (permalink)  
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I believe I should fold the turn unimproved, but I don't. THere's a lot of ppl attempting to be Gus H or overplaying AK, which causes this behaviour. Versus a tight ABC it'd probably be a good fold?
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ArcticKnight
Old 02-28-2005, 04:04 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Hi Jeff

Not sure what you could/should have done differently. The more it looked like he had high pair, then you went into check/call mode.

I would think he either has AKs (maybe AQs) or AA to JJ.

I'm not laying this down unless an A or K boards. (cause then you are toast anyway ). With no overcards, I could never lay this down in LHE.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-28-2005, 05:09 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten
I believe I should fold the turn unimproved, but I don't. THere's a lot of ppl attempting to be Gus H or overplaying AK, which causes this behaviour. Versus a tight ABC it'd probably be a good fold?
It'd be a good fold if it was a loose passive who only bets with the nuts. I'm not worried about paying off the better hand on anything I play. If I have TT and all unders flop, I'm not folding if its HU, period. I've three bet here on a bluff and forced a guy to fold. Representation is sometimes a lot different than actually having the hand. Sometimes, on some hands, you just gotta pay the price.


Arctic: this wasnt my hand, but i stole it from 2+2, they were saying it was a bad play on UTG part, I disagree, in that it was good play all around by both players. His post itself was pretty good, however this example wasnt. I wouldn't have played it any differently if I were either player, and thats my point.


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redih
Old 02-28-2005, 06:28 AM #11 (permalink)  
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I would've played it the same. If you're UTG, and you have a decent line that bdk3clash knows how to play poker in the least bit, you're expecting a call on the UTG bet at the flop not a 3bet. If you have KK or AA or a 4, you're going to want to extract most of your money from the turn/river, not an extra 3 on the flop. I'd say he's totally bluffing overcards, but I do turn into check/call mode on the turn/river.

Here's what you know if you're UTG with TT:
1. Pre-Flop 3bet = over cards or overpair without a 4 because bdk is in MP it seems
2. 3bet on flop = JJ/QQ or overcards, definitely not AA/KK/4 because it shows you're trying to push me out of the pot on a rags (cept the 4's, but it's safe to say nobody had a 4 with the 3bet pre-flop HU). If bdk3 had AA/KK/4 he wouldn't be afraid to give a turn card and hope it improves my hand.
3. If he had me beat, he would've called the reraise and let me bet/raise turn, and then let me check/call the river.
4. River = no way he would've 3bet me with 5/6 pre-flop/flop, so I may actually reraise on the river to try and either take it down there or to maximize my profits.


If bdk had AA/KK/4 it will blow my mind because for this type of play to work he would have to suspect I have A7 suited, or KQ JQ JT AJ etc. Most likely I think bdk thinks UTG has A7 suited since he has a good line on him and I think UTG played this perfectly, except maybe a reraise on the river. The only possible way bdk is right is if he has JJ/QQ, otherwise it's too much aggression and I think UTG picked up on it. You gotta play not only the player, but the players perception of what he thinks you have also.
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Zinnsoldaten
Old 02-28-2005, 10:26 AM #12 (permalink)  
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True redih. Come to think of it his way of playing it seems sort of suspicious and a smooth-call would probably be in order.

Do you make this 3-bet w/ OCs and a backdoor flush?
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-28-2005, 02:19 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zinnsoldaten
True redih. Come to think of it his way of playing it seems sort of suspicious and a smooth-call would probably be in order.

Do you make this 3-bet w/ OCs and a backdoor flush?
I do, but then take the free card on the turn. If you are ever up against a smart, thinking player, don't try to get in a raise war with him. He'll either have a hand or wont, and it will only increase your variance. When in a HU situation, if you dont think you have the goods, but still a winnable hand, I recommend calling down. That is, afterall, the beauty of LHE.

I've played against Fnord (purposefully too) enough times to know that you have to outplay him to extract the most money out of him, which itself is hard to do. So, if you can't outplay him, then call his ass down and let the cards do the talking. I have a saying: When in doubt, caller down.


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redih
Old 02-28-2005, 08:03 PM #14 (permalink)  
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I do make 3-bet with OC's with an ace on a rag flop. If they cap it then I know that I've lost most of my money in sb's instead of bb's so it minimizes my losses and I may get a free river card out of checking the turn if it doesn't improve my hand. If he caps it, he may try a check-raise on the turn and if my OC's (mainly A) doesn't hit, I can easily check it to the river and hope I improve.
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