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revolvingiris

08-19-2011, 08:25 PM Post subject: Random Live Play Strat questions

#1 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2008

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Hey guys, I'm going to be back on here for a while posting in the limit/live section. Hopefully my past douchey behavior can be redeemed. I took a long break from poker and realized how messed up I was and since then my ego has been checked.

Anyways, I played my first live session yesterday and it was NOTHING like online MTTs. I am playing LHE cash 2-4 right now and getting slaughtered by the rake. Not for long though as I am going to be grinding as hard as I can to move up QUICK. I have a couple questions/thoughts that came post session and I would really love some opinions on them.

Things to note:
- I was grinding lower limit NLHE MTTs on stars prior to black Friday.
- Not much cash game background.

1. I played for about 7 hours and I bet the average players saw flop was 7 out of the 9 seated. I know hands like AK go down in value and hands like T9s go up with this many players. Early on in the session I would raise to see how they reacted and not much (if any) folding took place so I stopped. I am not very familiar with this type of dynamic but by the end of the session I was basically limping a ton of hands that have monster potential. Anyone have any recommendations for playing in this type of dynamic?

Cliffs: Not sure how to handle a 9man table filled with limping, passive lags.

2. Pertaining to question 1, what hands from EP, MP, LP should I be raising/limping? Generalizations are more then fine for a response as I'm not looking for a chart. Stealing from LP is probably bad 90% of the time as the players wont fold and the rake would be too large of a %.

3. When should I be looking to bloat pots PF? I would make standard raises but there were times when I would have good suited connectors in LP and I would raise if everyone limped. Just trying things out and it seemed to work OK as I would either have something to bet at the flop with or not.

To give you a better idea of how the players were acting post flop: It was common for players to call a flop bet with J6o on a K82r flop.

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LawDude

08-25-2011, 06:52 PM

#2 (permalink)

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1. While AK does go down in value, it never goes down in value enough that it isn't worth raising and re-raising. TPTK is a good hand in limit, and weak calling-station type players will pay you off big when you hit it.

As for speculative hands, yes, you should be limping in or raising your suited connectors and one gappers (your choice) as well as small and medium pairs, and you can limp wide on the button if the blinds aren't going to raise. Position is really, really important. Also, look to raise broadway hands in position (for the same reason you raise AK) and big pairs.

Your money, over time, at the these tables comes from the fact that you are playing a better selection of starting hands than you're opponents, are raising when you are ahead, and are playing less out of position. Every time your opponents make those mistakes, they are donating money to the other players at the table.

2. Here's my suggested approach to pre-flop play.

3. You should be looking to raise big hands like AK and broadways in position and big pocket pairs. Whether you raise with more speculative hands with good equity is up to you-- since the pot is going to be huge, a lot of that is going to depend on how good a post-flop player you are.

revolvingiris

08-26-2011, 07:21 PM

#3 (permalink)

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LawDude,

Thanks a lot for the advice and link! Still trying to figure out my live game these tips will come in handy. I read the link and it was very well said I do have a couple thoughts though...

b. Courtesy cappers / limp re-raisers.

Since this guy was playing for a big pot with pretty trashy hands. Wouldn't you still be able to play a big pot vs him since your hand range will be stronger anyways? I would also think when your the BTN 3betting would be hugely +EV since this player will be OOP most of the hand.

In contrast, however, if you are in the cut-off and the button is 85/0, the small blind is 47/4, and the big blind is a 48/32 maniac, your stealing range needs to be a lot narrower, because you are always going to get called by the button (depriving you of position) and you are often going to get called twice and then 3-bet (depriving you of last aggressor status).

Doesn't the same situation apply here? If players are going to be loose don't we want to be in as many pots with them as we can be? I understand CO isn't perfect since the BTN is loose but our raising range should still be stronger then their calling ranges.

One of the topics I am working on now is bloating the pot vs reverse implied odds. Say we have AhKd on a KsQs2d board with 4 players who called our PF raise. We are on the BTN. We are pretty ahead of each player individually but combined we are not. Most boards I play are with multiway players for multiway streets. Which is great since we can just value bet all day. However, in situations like this I am not the most familiar EV wise.

KoRnholio

08-26-2011, 08:36 PM

#4 (permalink)

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KoRnholio will become famous soon enough

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

One of the topics I am working on now is bloating the pot vs reverse implied odds. Say we have AhKd on a KsQs2d board with 4 players who called our PF raise. We are on the BTN. We are pretty ahead of each player individually but combined we are not. Most boards I play are with multiway players for multiway streets. Which is great since we can just value bet all day. However, in situations like this I am not the most familiar EV wise.

Although we might not be a money favourite over our 3 opponents' combined outs, we are still favoured to win more than the average share of the pot.

Say on that KsQs2d board our AK fares very well against the rag-tag bunch of hands our opponents are holding. Even in virtually the worst possible scenario where we are currently ahead, but aren't that far ahead:

Board: Ks Qs 2d
Dead:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 35.366% 35.24% 00.12% 289 1.00 { AhKh }
Hand 1: 16.585% 15.98% 00.61% 131 5.00 { JhTd }
Hand 2: 38.902% 38.78% 00.12% 318 1.00 { As7s }
Hand 3: 09.146% 08.54% 00.61% 70 5.00 { QdTh }

We still have far more equity in the pot than average (which would be 25%). If we were on a short stack and were all in on the flop, it would be a very +EV proposition.

In reality, these loose players will not always be in there with good draws to beat us. Often times they'll have more dominated hands such as AQ, K9, QJ, 99. Also weaker draws like gutshots eg J9. Other times there might be more than one player with the same flush draw, which kills more of their outs.

Board: Ks Qs 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 58.049% 57.68% 00.37% 473 3.00 { AhKh }
Hand 1: 21.220% 20.24% 00.98% 166 8.00 { JhTd }
Hand 2: 08.049% 07.68% 00.37% 63 3.00 { AdQc }
Hand 3: 12.683% 11.71% 00.98% 96 8.00 { Jd9c }

In this scenario we are a very strong favorite.

As far as reverse implied odds go, that's more of a concern when our top/middle pair isn't so large. In the AK on KQx example, there's no overcards that can come to make our hand lose to a higher 1 pair hand.

If we had say 83 on an 872 board with 6 opponents, now we have serious reverse implied odds issues because we're likely ahead on the flop, but won't be on the vast majority of turn cards if the pot stays multiway. In spots like this there's often little you can do to protect your very vulnerable hand.

One of the main tools in the LHE playbook is to try to confront the field with cold calling a raise. In doing this, we've forced them to make an error, usually by calling without the right odds. In most loose LHE games where flops are multiway and pots are large, it's correct to call a single bet with bottom pair (5 outs to 2pr+) or a gutshot draw. By confronting them with calling a double bet, we've cut down their odds substantially and they are more likely to make mistakes.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

revolvingiris

08-27-2011, 01:05 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Thanks KoRnholio, that makes a lot of sense. I will def be incorporating this into my next session.

baudib

08-27-2011, 05:29 AM

#6 (permalink)

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There was a good sticky by Fnord from years ago somewhere about limit. I think one of the things he mentioned is that it's almost impossible to beat the rake at $2/$4.

ps I never realized you were douchey before, thanks for clarifying.

Playing big pots at small stakes.

revolvingiris

08-27-2011, 06:39 PM

#7 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by baudib

I've moved up to 3/6 since this post where I'm not sure its much more beatable then 2/4 but we'll see. The big issue is the rake but Canterbury Park has 10% with a $5 cap so its not as rapie.

As for being a douche, I now realize looking back that I wasn't playing poker with a really positive thought process. I can also see how I may have brought that mentality into the discussions I would be apart of. Post Apr 15th I've been doing a ton of mental work and am all around in a very, very different place.

I really like the community here and the more clear I became the more I realized how important FTR was to me.

KoRnholio

08-27-2011, 07:09 PM

#8 (permalink)

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I think live 3/6 is marginally beatable. 2/4 is likely not because the rake is just so high compared to the size of the bets.

Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.

fender55

09-20-2011, 07:01 PM

#9 (permalink)

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Location: San Diego CA

Posts: 52

It's been mentioned, but I think it is worth repeting. You can be a dog to win the hand, but still have the most equity. In these cases, you should still play and still play aggressively. In very low limit games, this is the position you'll find yourself in more often than not and that's ok.

I once had a very experieneced, but very old-school pro tell me never to raise AK from the BB in a multi-way limped pot since I'd be a dog to win the hand. I didn't really feel it was my place to correct him on this, since I was asking him for some helpful tips, but I had to bight my tongue bloody not to say I'd be gglad to take 20% equity if everyone else has far less and I'd be happy to take it for 4 bets too.

For beating low stakes limit, nothing explains this concept better IMO than small stakes hold 'em. It's a fantastic book and if you plan on grinding $3/$6 I think it's a must read.

Cory

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