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Ayodeji13
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01-04-2006, 12:56 PM
Post subject: Rake effects in live small stakes HE
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 35
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People have said that you can't beat a 2/4 live game because of rake... it sounds logical, but I dont' see why. Some1 please explain why to me so that I don't play 2/4 next time i goto AC
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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The idea behind beating the rake is that your pot sizes need to be bigger than the max rake size. In most card rooms it is 10% up to $5 rake meaning the pot maxes the rake at $50. The pot size will not hit 12.5BB in a 2/4 game enough to beat the rake.
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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koolmoe
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Drowning in prosperity
Posts: 1,279
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You can beat it, but if you are good enough to beat it, you would probably prefer to play higher.
Rake at $2/$4 is probably taking 0.75 - 1 BB out of most pots. If you win an average of two pots an hour, that is taking 4 - 6 BB / 100 hands off your non-raked win rate. Pretty hefty.
While the rake is more often capped at higher limits, even a $5 cap would only be 0.25 BB per pot at $10/$20, taking at most 1.5 BB / 100 off your unraked win rate.
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Poker is freedom
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pokerfanatic
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: 6max limit tables
Posts: 1,968
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i wouldn't play anything less then 4/8 live, and at 4/8 the rake is still hard to beat...
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“Dream as if you’ll live forever. Live as if you’ll die today.” ~ James Dean ~
"Poker is a lot like sex, peoples perceived ability usually blinds the truth" ~ me ~
"God bless him. Got to bet big to win big! GAMB00L!!!" ~ Fnord
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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Another way to look at it is that a typical 2/4 table will generate ~$100/hour in rake for the casino. If 10 people sit at a 2/4 game with $100 each then after five hours the casino will have half of it. You could very well be beating the other players, but still be down because you're losing too much to the house. It's not to say that you can't win, but you're going to be fighting an uphill battle on a very steep hill.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Ayodeji13
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 35
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So if i'm an average player (slightly agro Vanilla/ABC according to PT) and i walk into the casino w/ 300, should I sit down at 1/2 NL? or sit down at a 4/8 ?
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outphase
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Full House
Join Date: Apr 2005
Posts: 949
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1/2 is also a house game, stick to 4/8 LHE or 2/5 NLHE to beat the rake
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by lambchopdc
Lets stop talking ABC poker and move on to D, E, and F.
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DaNutsInYoEye
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: St. Louis
Posts: 1,921
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I'd think you'd have an easier time beating the rake at 1/2 NL than 4/8 LHE.
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TheXianti: (Triptanes) why are you not a thinking person?
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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Interesting topic. I've played many hours at a live 2/4 game with a 10% rake up to $4 + $1 bonus drop + $1 tip (sometimes  ) Results have been pretty even, but I haven't played my best there either.
To be honest, 2/4 is kind of out of my league if you go by the standard bankroll rule, but I still play it anyway because it's fun. Hardly anyone follows that rule in live games as the card room usually tries to give me $2 chips (which are not used until 6/12) when I buy chips for a 2/4 game.
I can handle a bad night of 2/4, but 4/8 or higher would really kill me. So what do you do? keep playing 2/4, switch to 4/8 or just stop playing live?
One very important thing is the number of players at the table. With a high rake, shorthanded tables just plain suck. Sure, I may not be the best shorthanded player, but it seems like everyone is losing when there are 6 or less people at the table.
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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Thats when you ask for a rakebreak. They wont point it out to you. So let them know.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
Thats when you ask for a rakebreak. They wont point it out to you. So let them know.
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This has been bugging me...what do you mean?
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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When a game becomes short handed you can ask for a smaller rake or "break" on the rake.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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Shark Bait
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Flush
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 481
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by ihategnomes
When a game becomes short handed you can ask for a smaller rake or "break" on the rake.
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Well I could ask, but they'd probably just laugh. 
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<a500lbgorilla> Limit is poker with training wheels!
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Ayodeji13
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Join Date: Sep 2005
Posts: 35
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but what if i'm going to a casino with say 3-400 bucks... should i buy in to a 4/8 table with 200 (25bb) or should i buy into a 3/6 table for 200, since variance will be pretty high at small stakes... i'm goin to AC 2morrow thats why i ask 
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ihategnomes
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 1,225
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They wont laugh, its pretty common.
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Field mice are fast, but owls can see in the dark.
<Bbickes> i still wanna know if the thing in your avatar is a real chick or not
<Bbickes> or am i e-crushing a dude
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cardsman1992
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Full House
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Being enjoyed at Jack's Bar since 1397
Posts: 1,065
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With my recent initiation to a B&M cardroom at $2/4, I estimate that between tips and rake (10%), I would have been almost break even had I not had to pay either.
Of course, had I played better/smarter the first 2 hours, I would have probably walked out ahead anyway 
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Ltrain
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Miami, Florida
Posts: 514
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If offered and you have at least $400, go to the $8-16 game. I was playing $8-16 LHE at the Bellagio over New Years and it is about like an average $2-4 table online. Also, the swings compared to the $2-4 game were the same, just more $$.
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"Don't judge a man until you have walked a mile in his shoes. Then you are a mile away, and have his shoes." - Anon.
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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shorthanded rocks if you can find a table. I usually play at the Ameristar in St. Charles, MO, and one night I was playing 5/10 about 2:00 AM (I usually play 3/6 until sometime after midnight then move up as they usually only have one 5/10 table and it's full of decent players until late.) People started leaving, and it got down to 5 handed. I asked for a reduced rake, and the dealer said that if everyone agreed, the rake would be dropped to $1 per hand with no jackpot drop. It took a little while, but I finally convinced one guy it was worth it to give up the chance at a jackpot. So I got to play for about 2 hours with the house taking only $1 a pot instead of $5 (10%, $4 max + $1 jackpot). Added bonus, we played with just the $2 small blind. Between the tiny rake and the typical bad at shorthanded players, I made over $250 in 2 hours. The thing that surprised me was that the table didn't break up. 95% of the time, once it gets down to 6 handed, people just leave because they don't like playing without a full table. I got to play 2 and 3 handed for over an hour.
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Kessler
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 117
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Playing shorthanded has always bothered me. I tend to overvalue crap hands and not give credit to strong holdings because I don't expect them in a short-handed game. (Less players, less cards dealt, so there's no way he could have KK, right? )
It's a leak, but that's why I don't prefer to play short-handed. Anything under 5-6 players is when I pick up my chips or take a break.
-Kes
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If you can't be kind, at least have the decency to be vague.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Kessler
shorthanded...I tend to overvalue crap hands
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I'm the opposite. Playing full ring, I tend to overvalue good hands.
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