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Raising late with a school of limpers...

  
 
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Sed
Old 02-17-2005, 02:23 PM     Post subject: Raising late with a school of limpers... #1 (permalink)  
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What is the cutoff?

From my short experience it would seem AA-QQ, AK, AQ, AJ, AT are the only hands you should raise when faced with multiple limpers in front of you....

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Fnord
Old 02-17-2005, 02:34 PM #2 (permalink)  
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So wrong

Raise: AA-TT, AK, AQ, AKs-ATs, KQs, KJs, QJs

Add 99-66, Axs, KTs, QTs, JTs, T9s if it's practically the entire table (8+ way flop expected)

Do NOT raise AJ/AT/KQ behind lots of limpers (unless you might buy the button and fold out the blinds.) You just have a pretty ok hand in a big multi-pot.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Sed
Old 02-17-2005, 02:40 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
KQs, KJs, QJs
I've been getting gilled with those guys lately... short term, sed, short term I'll take your word on it though oh grand poomba.

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Fnord
Old 02-17-2005, 02:41 PM #4 (permalink)  
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When the pot is multi-way suited cards with other ways to win have a big equity edge. Your raise pushes that edge.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-17-2005, 02:46 PM #5 (permalink)  
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 Arent you less likely to be up against a better hand if its limped to you and you have AJ or AT?

How does profitability of buying the button here work in the equation? I would think raising here could buy you a 4 card flop if you miss. Since you have position, i think the folding equity alone could allow a raise. It could also give you good drawing odds for a gutshot later in the round. KQo is along the same lines, but it easily dominated if an ace hits so i see your point. AJo is stronger though, ATo is, eh, a little weak (but raising it could force out an AJo).


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elipsesjeff
Old 02-17-2005, 02:47 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
When the pot is multi-way suited cards with other ways to win have a big equity edge. Your raise pushes that edge.
Suited cards ROCK!!!!


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Fnord
Old 02-17-2005, 02:55 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Arent you less likely to be up against a better hand if its limped to you and you have AJ or AT?
The fish quite often limp big hands. I have a big post comming about this. They certainly are NOT folding AQ/AJ to any raise. Finally, for those cards to win you need to both hit your pair and have it hold up against the mass of calls.

6,993,413 games 345.766 secs 20,225 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 18.8037 % [ 00.17 00.01 ] { AcTc }
Hand 2: 13.5343 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 3: 13.5327 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 4: 13.5167 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 5: 13.5149 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 6: 13.5515 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 7: 13.5462 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

1,004,281 games 50.906 secs 19,728 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 14.3798 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AcTd }
Hand 2: 14.2667 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 3: 14.2440 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 4: 14.2207 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 5: 14.2903 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 6: 14.2409 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 7: 14.3575 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o }

1,391,006 games 71.313 secs 19,505 games/sec

Board:
Dead:

equity (%) win (%) / tie (%)

Hand 1: 15.6516 % [ 00.14 00.01 ] { AcJd }
Hand 2: 14.0574 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 3: 14.0448 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 4: 13.9978 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 5: 14.0675 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 6: 14.0514 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o, 87o, 76o, 65o, 54o }
Hand 7: 14.1295 % [ 00.13 00.01 ] { AA-22, AKs-A2s, KQs-K2s, QJs-Q2s, JTs-J2s, T9s-T2s, 98s-92s, 87s-82s, 76s-72s, 65s-62s, 54s-52s, 43s-42s, 32s, AKo-A2o, KQo-K8o, QJo-Q8o, JTo-J8o, T9o-T8o, 98o }
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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ChezJ
Old 02-17-2005, 03:28 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Arent you less likely to be up against a better hand if its limped to you and you have AJ or AT?

How does profitability of buying the button here work in the equation? I would think raising here could buy you a 4 card flop if you miss. Since you have position, i think the folding equity alone could allow a raise. It could also give you good drawing odds for a gutshot later in the round. KQo is along the same lines, but it easily dominated if an ace hits so i see your point. AJo is stronger though, ATo is, eh, a little weak (but raising it could force out an AJo).
If a bunch of fish have limped in ahead you, your LP raise is not going to make anybody go away, certainly not an AJo or any pocket pair.

AJo/ATo are only good hands if you are up against 2-3 players. Basically, you are hoping to spike top pair with an okay kicker. You're not going to hit much else with this hand. TP okay kicker does not win often against a field of 5-6 people, especially when they are fish who may limp w AK/AQ/AA/KK. Even if they all have pure crap hands, their collective outs completely neutralize any edge you have. So raising against them in LP just helps them get odds to outdraw you.

KQs, KJs, QJs, etc., have a lot more going for them. They can hit TP good kicker but can also hit quality flushes and straights. So they work both shorthanded and multiway. That's why you raise them even in LP.

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RiverMonkey
Old 02-17-2005, 04:31 PM #9 (permalink)  
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In my experience, against limpers, any LP-raise is not going to knock anyone out. Do we all agree on that?

So, the only valid reason that I can see to raise these hands would be to build a larger pot (I can see how a pot equity argument can be made for some (but not all) of the hands listed).

Now, if you are LP raising with this many hands (e.g. PPs down to 66), and you consider that:

(1) you are going to miss on the flop quite often
(2) with that many people in the hand you can't use your pre-flop raise as as leverage to take down the pot on the flop
(3) you will erode most of the respect people will have for your raises
(4) people at the table will get annoyed with your pre-flop raise frequency and want to play better against you

I just have a hard time understanding what the benefits are other than building a large pot. Please explain. Thanks!

Also, see HEFAP's (21 century edition) section on playing in loose games. They advocate giving up some pre-flop equity against loose/weaker players by not raising pre-flop in order to give them all a chance to make more expensive mistakes in later rounds ...... The ol' out-play your opponents post-flop argument.

Please, I am not necessarily disagreeing with this post, I'm just trying to rationalize the advice I'm seeing from a number of disparate sources.

I would have thought that with hands that thrive on implied odds like 66, 77, suited connectors you want to see the flop for cheap and therefore you shouldn't be raising pre-flop unless you want to isolate players, buy the button and/or try to steal the blinds. Whereas, with hands that suffer from reverse implied odds like AA, KK, QQ, high off-suit hands in general you want to raise pre-flop whether you are in early position or not.

On a related note, I've found EP-raising pre-flop to be more useful in situations where you are sitting on a monster like AA, KK, QQ, which plays better against less opponents. But it is also very useful EP-raising when you have hands like TT, 99, 88. It seems to me that you have more chance of knocking out the eventual winning hands pre-flop with an EP-raise as compared to a LP-raise.
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Fnord
Old 02-17-2005, 04:42 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
(1) you are going to miss on the flop quite often
So what, I'm getting 8 to 1 on my money. In really good games I will often check/fold or bet/fold the flop after a PFR. This really bewilders the fish.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
(2) with that many people in the hand you can't use your pre-flop raise as as leverage to take down the pot on the flop
Which is exactly why I tend to take free cards more often with overcards, etc. when the pot is out of control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
(3) you will erode most of the respect people will have for your raises
(4) people at the table will get annoyed with your pre-flop raise frequency and want to play better against you
Yes, they get annoyed that thay can't play limp + flop poker and it costs them 2 bets to play their favorite dogshit sooted hand. They respond to this by cold calling and 3-betting instead of folding. Making even bigger mistakes in the process. So in my experience, they play WORSE.
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elipsesjeff
Old 02-17-2005, 04:49 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord

The fish quite often limp big hands. I have a big post comming about this. They certainly are NOT folding AQ/AJ to any raise. Finally, for those cards to win you need to both hit your pair and have it hold up against the mass of calls.

The numbers dont lie, ATo basically is a break even hand with 7 limpers. Thus, raising would be another way to increase your variance. I dont see too many loose games that often, other than pacific. And, you're right, they don't fold anything. AJo is a little better, but not enough to raise for it to mean anything other than increase your variance.


Rivermonkey:

Im glad when my raises dont get respect. They can call me down when I hold AA.....they will learn there lesson well after I've adjusted to their play. People just can't 'turn on' their game and want to play better. They have so many bad tendancies that they dont even realize how many bets their calling with their 66 anymore. I mean, whats one more bet right? Playing in games where they don't respect your raises just means you shouldnt bluff as much.


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RiverMonkey
Old 02-17-2005, 04:55 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Good point re: free card plays.

Also good point re: turning habitual limpers into habitual cold-callers.
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Sed
Old 02-17-2005, 05:31 PM #13 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RiverMonkey
Also good point re: turning habitual limpers into habitual cold-callers.
Yep, been seeing a lot of this. I raise in late position a lot and they get used to calling 2 bets so when I raise in early with a big hand, they all cold-call me ...

I think my main leaks were raising unsuited decent hands into a lot of limpers. That'll be fixed now. I am assuming you call other hands such as KJo, AJo, ATo on the button or do you drop them?

Fnord, that quote in your sig, was that a warning to the other fish to get him to stop raising?

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Fnord
Old 02-17-2005, 05:37 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sed
I think my main leaks were raising unsuited decent hands into a lot of limpers. That'll be fixed now. I am assuming you call other hands such as KJo, AJo, ATo on the button or do you drop them?
Call. Fold KT, QT, JT

Quote:
Originally Posted by sed
Fnord, that quote in your sig, was that a warning to the other fish to get him to stop raising?
Yeah
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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