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metaxy6
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05-11-2005, 12:20 PM
Post subject: Raise AA or KK from the blinds in small limit game?
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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Do you like to raise premium from the blinds in a small game ($1/2)?
You know every limper is going to call. You're going to bet out on the flop and you know that you're going to get all kinds of callers.
So, if you're not going to eliminate, then what are you trying to accomplish? Getting value? You could get more value by check raising either flop or turn.
Part of me is just p.o.d about these hands getting cracked so much in small games. I'm on pins and needles every time my premium gets called. I suppose that should change the strategy. But then again, it might be a sensible adjustment given the game.
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smcicr
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 31
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from my (albeit limited) experience i'd always want to raise those levels of hands, from any position.
the caveat being that it will also always depend on your read of the table...
however, if you limp with those hands then you are letting the whole range of players, from the maniacs through to the rocks play pretty much any two cards - not ideal and potentially disastrous. By raising you will (theoretically) get rid of a good number of the other limpers and thus maximise your chance of not getting outflopped / outdrawn.
again - it's all about the read you have on the table, who plays what and when etc but i'd much rather raise and get two callers than limp and play the aces or kings against 7 or more other hands...
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"nobody's ugly after 2 am" - bukowski
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Xanadu
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Full House
Join Date: May 2005
Location: st. paul, MO
Posts: 966
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I assume from your description of 1/2 as a small game that you are playing limit. At those stakes, almost no-one who has put money in the pot will fold a raise pre-flop. You should be raising for value because you have the best or second best hand with AA or KK. You must remember though, that in a 10 player family pot, even AA is worse than a 3-1 dog to the field. At low fixed limit, you just gotta get your raises in pre-flop, and play to the showdown unless you see something like 4 of a suit or a straight board that only needs 1 card to fill. Probably the most important thing is DON'T TILT!!. Know going in you are probably going to get sucked out. If you want to cut down on the variance in exchange for some value (not mathematically correct, but can be reasonable from a bankroll point of view), you can play aces and kings very carefully if you don't hit the set on the flop. For example, you have AA and the flop is rags and there is a bet and a raise before you ... fold em. I'm convinced that most of the value of AA is that when you flop a set it's the nut set, when you get that flush it's the nut flush, and your boats are usually the nuts too. I wouldn't be surprised that an unimproved AA that sees the showdown every time is barely positive in expectation.
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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You're right - it's rare that the limpers are going to fold for the extra $1.
Another reason to just check or call from the blinds is to disguise the hand strength. But in low limit, it's not really that important.
In a tight game, or at least a solid game, someone raising from the blind is telegraphing that they have AK at the very least. I don't mind folding decent starters in my live 10/20 game with raises from the blind, even if I'm limped in already. So it makes sense to disguise AA or KK by just calling or checking and waiting to trap.
Not so in these low limit games, where people will raise a wide range of hands from the blinds (I've seen 44; J9o; A6s - at 6 person table with limpers - in the last day or so). And people are just kind of dim; it doesn't occur to them that I've been camping for an hour and I just raised FROM THE BLIND.
I know you're right that aces stop being the favorite if there's more than 2 callers. At any rate, it's poker - you've got to get your money in with the best hand.
Thanks for the thoughts.
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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Another thought - it's a good precedent to raise from the blind sometimes in the low limit games anyways. It makes that J8o in middle position think twice about limping in if he knows that you could raise from the blind.
I know those maniacs raising 44, etc. were making me think.
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Fortune 500
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Full House
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Bluffalupagus
Posts: 1,261
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Hell yes you want to raise them, with limpers. The one time I would consider not raising is if it's down to the just the blinds with no limpers. Then I might let the blinds see a flop and hope they catch enough to pay me off... It's still risky, but other than that, yes... Raise them.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Xanadu
...in a 10 player family pot, even AA is worse than a 3-1 dog to the field.
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i'll take 9:1 payout odds on a 3:1 shot any day of the week, and twice on sunday!!! cap that sucker!!
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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AA in the blind is the hand that killed me tonight. I was already down and should have been way gone. Instead I tightened up and eventually caught AA in the big blind - 4 limpers. I raise - 4 calls. I bet the flop 6 8 Q. 9 on the turn looked scary, but I still bet out. Raise from 1 off the button. Call. Maybe he's 2 pr and I can lick it. Check call after the the river blanks - crying, of course. He turns over 5 7o for nine high straight. Oh, and he leaves the very next hand.
So, I'm done raising AA or KK from the blinds. It doesn't eliminate anyone, and it hurts too bad to throw the hand out even when you know you're beat.
And - screw the low limit games. I'm done with them. I know beats happen. I know you've got to think long term EV. But I just can't get into a luckfest.
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Rondavu
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 3,053
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by metaxy6
AA in the blind is the hand that killed me tonight. I was already down and should have been way gone. Instead I tightened up and eventually caught AA in the big blind - 4 limpers. I raise - 4 calls. I bet the flop 6 8 Q. 9 on the turn looked scary, but I still bet out. Raise from 1 off the button. Call. Maybe he's 2 pr and I can lick it. Check call after the the river blanks - crying, of course. He turns over 5 7o for nine high straight. Oh, and he leaves the very next hand.
So, I'm done raising AA or KK from the blinds. It doesn't eliminate anyone, and it hurts too bad to throw the hand out even when you know you're beat.
And - screw the low limit games. I'm done with them. I know beats happen. I know you've got to think long term EV. But I just can't get into a luckfest. |
There are big clues in what you just said as to why you can't get into a "luck" fest.
You have to raise AA and KK from the blinds. It's incorrect not to. If you can get just one person to fold against the raise, you've improved your situation. I see people fold to a raise all the time after limping in limit. That's one more guy that won't beat you.
In early or mid position, you raise KK and AA to isolate. In late position, your often raising it for value only.
Think about it like this... your a 3-1 underdog in this situation. Your getting 6-1 odds each time you get this kind of hand in the blinds. Let's just say your always getting better than 3-1 odds on the pot. What that means is this is a long term winner for you. The more you play this kind of pot, the more profit you make. When you have +EV on a particular situation, you raise to make the pot larger. That's what raising for value means. Every 3 pots like this your going to win one of them with these hands. Each time that happens you'll get more than 3-1 for your money. Limit hold em is a long term game.
The thing getting you down is that 2 out of 3 times you get run down by something stupid. That's exactly what's supposed to happen. When it does, just let yourself know your playing winning poker. If you don't raise AA and KK from any position, then you don't understand how to win at limit hold em.
Trust me, there's good money to be made in Limit. I turned $5 into $1100 in two weeks.
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It's not what's inside that counts. Have you seen what's inside?
Internal organs. And they're getting uglier by the minute.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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you can't beat 1/2, so you're moving up to higher limits where you can lose more? i can't wait to see you at my table.
btw, congratulations on proving the theory of poker wrong with just one hand of poker.
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wolfofruby
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 17
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you have to take bad beats when play at this level. i mean... a lot !!!
In small limit, your AA is going to lose against 72 , 83 , 75 and any crazy hand. If they couldn't beat you, they wouldn't play it.
If you think it's easier to beat players who fold every hand like robots and only go for premium hand, you 're wrong.
The problem is that you are going to have a lot of fluctation on your bankroll. One or two Bat beat, you lose a big pot and big variance. But you must be willing to take risk and risk some money when your EV is ++.
NB : I don't understand why the BB should be an exception for raising. If you raise AA everywere else raise on the BB.
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ChezJ
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Full House
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 1,456
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fluctuation shmuctuation. this guy is saying he's unwilling to invest $1 on the best possible hand.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Raise for value. Always.
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ectomorph
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Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 21
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by metaxy6
So, I'm done raising AA or KK from the blinds. It doesn't eliminate anyone, and it hurts too bad to throw the hand out even when you know you're beat.
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So, you're now going to play incorrectly? When you raise from the blinds with AA, or KK you were hoping EVERYONE would fold?? No, you wanted action and got it, but still lost. It was still the correct play. I think you also pointed out a leak in your game with that sentence. You can't lay down a hand even when you KNOW you're beat. And moving up limits will only cost you more money with holes like that in your game.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Most of the time postflop play will decide your action more than preflop play. You must take necessary measures to protect your hand. Check/raise the flop or wait until the turn to raise your hand.
http://texas-holdem-poker.flopturnri...low-stakes.php
http://texas-holdem-poker.flopturnri.../limit-3-6.php
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Element187
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Full House
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Orlando, FL
Posts: 802
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come to the 2/4 game with that strategy 
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"Imagine how it would be to be at the top Making cash money, Go and tour all around the world, Tell stories about all the young girls." - The Prodigy - Girls
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metaxy6
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Flush
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 328
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That post was motivated by the frustration of crashing my br at Interpoker. Ya, I know - raise for value with +EV.
It's just that it seems lame to build a pot for someone's 5 7o. In fact, betting at all seems pointless in the 1/2 game. EVERYONE calles the first bet, even if they're pinning their hopes on the slimmest runner runner draw. Yes, I know you want callers with the best hand. I just don't know that you want 4-5 callers chasing ridiculous draws. Your odds may be good against 1 or 2, but 5?
I know in my live 10/20 game that at least 1 or 2 people who've limped w hands like Ax, K 10, or 6 8 s are going to fold preflop with a raise from the blind. I'll usually fold these hands when the blind raises. I just don't want to get involved when the blind is telling me I'm a big dog.
The game gets interesting because of this - there is room for some art. Better players know how to play off of this expectation. They either limp w AA or KK and hope to trap, or they raise hands like 10 J suited from the blinds. There's no art in a game where you can't assume that anybody knows what all this means.
Anyways, if the whole field is going to show up for the party in 1/2, and the AA is a dog to the field, then - how is the EV+?
Check raise the field on the flop? Make the pot odds even juicier to chase that slim draw or risk giving a free card? I don't like that play.
But yes, mea culpa for not knowing when to give up the hand. Bad play - I was burned out. You have to admit though - one raise on the turn w the slimmest of straights on the board - you'd probably call hoping that the raiser had 2 pair right? You'd still have outs and there's a lot of $ in the pot. If there's a re-raise, then it would make sense to chuck it.
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by metaxy6
That post was motivated by the frustration of crashing my br at Interpoker. Ya, I know - raise for value with +EV.
It's just that it seems lame to build a pot for someone's 5 7o. In fact, betting at all seems pointless in the 1/2 game. EVERYONE calles the first bet, even if they're pinning their hopes on the slimmest runner runner draw. Yes, I know you want callers with the best hand. I just don't know that you want 4-5 callers chasing ridiculous draws. Your odds may be good against 1 or 2, but 5?
I know in my live 10/20 game that at least 1 or 2 people who've limped w hands like Ax, K 10, or 6 8 s are going to fold preflop with a raise from the blind. I'll usually fold these hands when the blind raises. I just don't want to get involved when the blind is telling me I'm a big dog.
The game gets interesting because of this - there is room for some art. Better players know how to play off of this expectation. They either limp w AA or KK and hope to trap, or they raise hands like 10 J suited from the blinds. There's no art in a game where you can't assume that anybody knows what all this means.
Anyways, if the whole field is going to show up for the party in 1/2, and the AA is a dog to the field, then - how is the EV+?
Check raise the field on the flop? Make the pot odds even juicier to chase that slim draw or risk giving a free card? I don't like that play.
But yes, mea culpa for not knowing when to give up the hand. Bad play - I was burned out. You have to admit though - one raise on the turn w the slimmest of straights on the board - you'd probably call hoping that the raiser had 2 pair right? You'd still have outs and there's a lot of $ in the pot. If there's a re-raise, then it would make sense to chuck it. |
Have you read Small Stakes Holdem? I'm getting a feeling you havent.
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Khabbi
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Flush
Join Date: Nov 2004
Posts: 381
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I'm not a limit player, but I agree that raising on the pre-flop is a good idea.
With a bunch of limpers now at this point, someone is going to want to bet. Why not check-raise to send a message? I don't think I have seen this suggested yet.
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