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Ragnar4's Deep Thoughts 5/7/07

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Ragnar4

05-07-2007, 05:42 PM Post subject: Ragnar4's Deep Thoughts 5/7/07

#1 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

I've been playing the .25/.50 6max games. And even though, I'm still not sufficiently rolled, over the last couple of weeks and thousands hands, I've been crushing the competition. If it weren't for my ego getting the better of me, in an attempt to jump up levels, I would have turned 30 dollars into into a sufficient .25/.50 Bankroll.

Going into this experiment, I've been reading books like "Super System, SSH, Killer Poker, and Killer Poker Online, The Theory of Poker, and Hold 'em for advanced players." Each one suggests the exact same thing. --At these levels of play, the knuckleheads you're playing with just aren't smart enough to realize when they are beat, what's worse, you can't bluff them in a situation they can't call, because they don't know that they can't call. -- Paraprased by me. The books go on to suggest that ABC poker is the way to go.

Consistant, constant, smart, observational playing has taught me that this isn't entirely true. This is the first time, in all my dabbling online, and BnM that I've played to this level of clarity, and been able to observe players habits, calculate odds, read the texture of the flop, and put players on a range of hands all at the same time. I've been able to do all of these things, but never at the same time. I focused on one, and forgot about the other.

The revelations I've come up with, are quite to the contrary of what's being pounded into our heads by the authors. I'm not going to go on and suggest that we should deviate from ABC poker. Tight, Aggressive, good starting hands early, and mid. Mix in suited connected speculative hands from late mid to the button as long as their is some limp action in front of you wins the money. The revelations I'm talking about, is the ability to bluff a fish. It takes more work, but it is do-able.

I think the reason that most pro's try suggest that their bluffs don't work is because their bluffs are more intricate. The check call flop, check raise turn, lead out river bluff works amazingly well at 3/6, 3/6 kill, and 6/12 for me. Very intricate, stone cold "I have a set, don't mess with me" action.
It doesn't work at .25/.50 because these guys are still trying to figure out the optimal tricky way to play a set. (please don't lecture me on the optimal way to play a set, I already know it, this is the optimal tricky way....)

Obviously this will never work against a pure calling station. Most players aren't pure calling stations though. They have a broad range of raising hands, such as QT, K9, A9, JQ, Q7, along with the normal AK, AQ, AJ, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA. Too broad of a spectrum to not be taken advantage of. The other lynchpin of this play requires that the opponent know how to toss out a continuation bet. I know a lot of players that no matter what the flop is, if they raised pre-flop, they are c-betting the flop. While I'm a fan of the c-bet. I'm more likely to check AK if all low cards come against 5 other opponents. I also think the c-bet is more effective at no-limit than it is at limit, but that's another rant. Many of these .25/.50 dweebs also c-bet like it's in the rules that they HAVE To. Meaning if you're heads up with a habitual c-better, with position, call that c-bet, and look for the turn check if they brick. They check, you have poop, you bet out anyway, and watch them drop their cards in the muck. With that, you just bluffed a low limit weak fishy player.

If the low limit player calls here, if it's another brick, fire again. If he calls you with just overs, put a note in his file that he's mentally retarded, and that you should value-bet weaker hands into this guy, also to be less likely to try a bluff, or a c-bet when this yahoo is in the pot when you catch air with your big slick.

If on the river, he folds, give him a note there too. Sometimes low-limit players like to see the river come hell or high water.

Finally, if this player does fold, put a note in his file that he is a veritable gold mine. The "Call the C-bet, bluff the brick turn" play is amazingly profitable against the right player. I once made this play 10 times in a row against a weak player, only to have him have a pair of KK on the 11th time, that I cracked cuz I 2-paired on the river. Sure I had to get lucky to get him the 11th time, but, even if I had paid off, the amount of bets I make, versus the amount I lose is still huge +EV.

Like John Vorhaus says. If you have to rely on the cards to win, you're only playing about half of the game.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

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bigspenda73

05-08-2007, 01:44 AM

#2 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

You're thinking about 36 levels too deep for .25/.50.

If you ever try to make someone fold in a B&M game that isn't full of tight locals I'd say you're about 57 levels too deep.

I won't discourage "mixing it up" but your goals at your level (.25/.50) are:

1. win 2bb/100
2. grind bonus
3. make rakeback
4. move up to $.5/1 once you have ~$400

What's the best way to do this? Multitable grind ABC poker. I was like 5-tabling .25/.50 6max and I think I only spent a week there. Something like 3bb/100 (I ran good) over 15k hands plus clearing a decent amount of bonus. After that was the tough part. Getting from .5/1 to 1/2 as fast as you can is the most important step as you move up levels.

euphoricism

05-08-2007, 07:01 AM

#3 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Quote:

Meaning if you're heads up with a habitual c-better, with position, call that c-bet, and look for the turn check if they brick. They check, you have poop, you bet out anyway, and watch them drop their cards in the muck. With that, you just bluffed a low limit weak fishy player.

certainly doable, but not necessary, and since the turn is 2x the size of the flop, youre increasing your risk for relatively reward.

One of my most profitable game pieces was finding someone who often donked out on the flop/turn and figuring out exactly what he did that with. From there, play as many hands as possible with that person because you can know his hand quite well.

Similar: If someone is only raising AA/KK preflop, play as many hands with them as possible when they raise preflop. You know their hand, they dont know yours. Theyll pay out the ass when you hit, you dont pay at all when you miss.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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Ragnar4

05-08-2007, 07:54 AM

#4 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

I appreciate the input. I can only say, that I'm running pretty well, and mixing it up. Multi-tabling is new for me. I did it for a few hours tonight, and ran really well. Doubled through on my Buy-ins in about 2 hours. Then I went on a rough, dry streak. Pee'd 10 back not getting any hands. Dry streaks suck in 6-max. Money dissappears faster.

Anyway, I should quantify, in my deep thoughts articles, that I'm still learning. Thankfully I'm kicking .25/.50 6-max in the nuts.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

euphoricism

05-09-2007, 06:04 AM

#5 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

Quote:

Getting from .5/1 to 1/2 as fast as you can is the most important step as you move up levels.

Getting OUT of 1/2 is the most important step. God 1/2's rake structure is paaaainful.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
Directions to join the #flopturnriver Internet Relay Chat - Come chat with us!

NWNewell

05-09-2007, 12:51 PM

#6 (permalink)

Flush

Join Date: Aug 2006

Location: Kennedy Space Center, FL

Posts: 283

Quote:

Originally Posted by euphoricism

Getting OUT of 1/2 is the most important step. God 1/2's rake structure is paaaainful.

Welcome to my world!! .... as I start coming back.

Grateful that I've got bonus and rakeback helping to pull me out of the trenches....

My "Operation Come Back" Thread: Interupted.

bigspenda73

05-09-2007, 01:11 PM

#7 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

I've played sites with the same structure at .5/1 as there is at 1/2

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Ragnar4's Deep Thoughts 5/7/07

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