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LeFou
Old 11-16-2004, 09:49 PM     Post subject: Quick question... #1 (permalink)  
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How the hell do you play this game?

Those of you who were at Stars with me know I made a Pit
I
Ful

showing at my introduction to limit. Well, not introduction exactly, but I haven't played much of it at all, and None for a few months.

Seems like I'm constantly sitting with my K8s that I played on the button staring at a 539 rainbow thinking wtf? Seems like some other guy plays K8 off all the way to the river and pairs the 8 there to take it all.

I can't tell if I'm just not getting the cards, but Every flop seems to be a mile from me. Or do you not need as much to continue in limit?
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lonnie
Old 11-16-2004, 10:02 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Seems like some other guy plays K8 off all the way to the river and pairs the 8 there to take it all.
These are the guys we want to beat, not emulate.

I personally don't play Kxs from any position... the only thing it is good for is to flop a flush draw and then it's not even the nuts. It can also get you in a bad spot when you flop a K and don't have a kicker worth mentioning. Save these marginal situations for Axs in position and with enough callers.

Quote:
I can't tell if I'm just not getting the cards, but Every flop seems to be a mile from me. Or do you not need as much to continue in limit?
You generally need more, since almost all hands will go to showdown. There's usually 1 or 2 people chasing you down every hand, and there's really not much you can do about it except to bet/raise and fold when it is clear you are beat. There isn't much you can do to push a drawing hand out of the pot. You are well served to learn how to play your draws too.

There are a lot of post in this forum for specific situations in limit, I suggest you start reading them to get more particular info.
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Old 11-16-2004, 10:03 PM #3 (permalink)  
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Kxs are worth playing in very loose games because if an ace comes, you have the nuts.
 
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Fnord
Old 11-16-2004, 10:21 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Kxs are worth playing in very loose games because if an ace comes, you have the nuts.
Wrong.

It's because the onslaught of loose calls pay you off big enough the few times you're able to make the best hand and it hold up.

In a tighter game, you'll need to win more smaller pots against stronger hands so only the strongest Kxs become playable outside of blind wars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Fnord
Old 11-16-2004, 10:25 PM     Post subject: Re: Quick question... #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LeFou
How the hell do you play this game?
No Limit is a game of implied odds, big pots and big bluffs.

Limit is a game of effective odds, driving value, subtle bluffs and showing down the best hand more often than not. Particularly at the lower limits.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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lonnie
Old 11-16-2004, 10:37 PM #6 (permalink)  
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I'll agree that there are certain situations that Kxs is good to play, but would you recommend playing Kxs to a beginning limit player? Wouldn't it be better just to eliminate from the play list altogether and then bring it back later when they are more skilled at playing it? That's what I'm doing. I DO play K9s from the button in loose multi pots.
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Fnord
Old 11-16-2004, 11:03 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie
I'll agree that there are certain situations that Kxs is good to play, but would you recommend playing Kxs to a beginning limit player? Wouldn't it be better just to eliminate from the play list altogether and then bring it back later when they are more skilled at playing it? That's what I'm doing. I DO play K9s from the button in loose multi pots.
One of the biggest pots I ever won was with K8s I believe. I was on the button and *everyone* either posted or limped in front of me. Ended up a 10-way pot. Flopped the 2nd nut flush draw. Turned the nut flush. No-brainer hand to play.

Playlists are a nice crutch to get started, but you really need to learn to acurately determine the value of a given hand at a given table in a given position in relation to the action in front of you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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LeFou
Old 11-17-2004, 03:27 PM     Post subject: Re: Quick question... #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
No Limit is a game of implied odds, big pots and big bluffs.

Limit is a game of effective odds, driving value, subtle bluffs and showing down the best hand more often than not. Particularly at the lower limits.
That's a quick answer to the quick question. Thanks.

Been looking at Baldwin's section of SuperSystem. I think the stakes he's talking about are so high that a lot of that doesn't apply. AQ off is a marginal hand? Not when the average hand being played to the river is T7
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lonnie
Old 11-17-2004, 03:54 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Lefou-

Your 'quick' question was:

Quote:
How the hell do you play this game?
Sorry, will try to give a one line answer next time.

AQo is a great hand, but you have to know how to play it well. I generally don't play AQo unless I can raise with it. If it is 2 bets to me...I will usually muck unless the raiser is loose preflop, in which case I will reraise. Poker tracker helps a bunch with this.

BTW - I think SuperSystems's limit section is fantastic. It doesn't really cover preflop play adequately, but is very good at post flop situations and covers a lot of different common situations you can find yourself in. That was the first poker book I read.
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LeFou
Old 11-17-2004, 04:20 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lonnie
Sorry, will try to give a one line answer next time..
Baldwin gives a pretty good 1-page answer in S/S, dealing with "weak hands". These are the kinds of hands I Love to Play in NL -- 87s and stuff. But in Limit I think I'm leaking on them.

in a nutshell there are 3 kinds of spots you'll be in with the weak hands (these only play in mid/late position)
-early call, middle folds. you fold too because you're damn likely to be HU against a sweet hand
-multiple limpers. you call
-early calls and a raise. cold call if there will be 4-6 way action.

Seems very sound. Am I right in thinking there is No Point in raising these hands? In NL that's a strong play -- taking the lead without much, so that you can buy flops that miss everyone.
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Fnord
Old 11-17-2004, 05:37 PM #11 (permalink)  
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The limit section of SuperSystem was written for a different blind structure and different table texture than today's games.

Weak hands don't hold up well in limit because more of the money goes in pre-flop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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zenbitz
Old 11-17-2004, 09:41 PM #12 (permalink)  
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biggest difference for me - and I'm sure can extract this from Fnord technical comments - between NL and Limit, is that NL is a game of balls, and limit is a game of cowardice.

Example, K8s. Pretty crappy hand, but playable as others have indicated, with hordes of limpers or from blinds. If I have a table felt out as super passive, I will even chance it in mid position because I am sure that I will get a couple callers and no raise. Still, I think this is weak, because you really want to get >8:1 PF.

Now, obviously, the flop you are looking for is AXX, with 2 suited 2 your ace. Have slight caution with 2 suited. No brainer, as discussed.

Obviously, you can play top pair bad kicker on a KXXr flop as well

Now, if the flip is AKXr or J8Xr ... I would bet out but be wary of callers.
Absolutly fold to any raise - unless the got the 1 Lagger in 100.

I might even check the turn on a blank - if you are checked to, then he probably has an overcard at best. You will get the occasional slow player, which is bad, because you will lose, but kinda funny, because while it's a good move to slow play a Tagg, it's silly to do so to a calling station.

Now, the problem with playing this way is that you end up with 2nd pair, or worse yet, A-high on the river, and pretty much have to fold to any bet.

So, maybe it's best to just check/fold the 2nd pair!

Thoughts?
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Fnord
Old 11-18-2004, 02:31 AM #13 (permalink)  
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CARDSON

I play g00t

***** Hand History *****
$2/$4 Hold'em
Seat 4 is the button
Total number of players : 9
Seat 2: chaii ( $127.25 )
Seat 5: floydcat ( $116 )
Seat 6: deeznutzaaaa ( $208.5 )
Seat 7: Harv72b ( $161 )
Seat 10: mike_sharpe ( $113.75 )
Seat 4: Fnord ( $187 )
Seat 9: jj42p ( $105 )
Seat 1: DCRusty ( $90 )
Seat 8: vickie25975 ( $98 )
floydcat posts small blind [$1].
deeznutzaaaa posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Fnord [ 8s Ks ]
Harv72b folds.
vickie25975 calls [$2].
jj42p folds.
mike_sharpe folds.
DCRusty folds.
chaii calls [$2].
Fnord calls [$2].
floydcat folds.
deeznutzaaaa checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 3c, 8h, 6d ]
deeznutzaaaa checks.
vickie25975 bets [$2].
chaii calls [$2].
Fnord raises [$4].
deeznutzaaaa folds.
vickie25975 calls [$2].
c_ball86 has joined the table.
chaii folds.
** Dealing Turn ** [ Qs ]
vickie25975 checks.
Fnord bets [$4].
vickie25975 calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ 2s ]
vickie25975 checks.
Fnord checks.
vickie25975 shows [ 4s, 4h ] a pair of fours.
Fnord shows [ 8s, Ks ] a pair of eights.
Fnord wins $26 from the main pot with a pair of eights.
Harv72b has left the table.
mike_sharpe has left the table.

***** Hand History *****
$2/$4 Hold'em
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 3: emgee22 ( $109 )
Seat 6: Briana_Banks ( $155 )
Seat 7: jhoker ( $90.75 )
Seat 10: JediPimp1284 ( $132 )
Seat 9: Fnord ( $189 )
Seat 1: McPeePee ( $61 )
Seat 2: ronweb ( $253 )
Seat 5: KoneYak24 ( $205.75 )
Seat 8: TheBigSwan ( $88 )
Seat 4: RSxStylez ( $18 )
emgee22 posts small blind [$1].
KoneYak24 posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Fnord [ Js Ac ]
Briana_Banks folds.
jhoker raises [$4].
TheBigSwan folds.
Fnord raises [$6].
JediPimp1284 folds.
McPeePee folds.
ronweb folds.
emgee22 folds.
KoneYak24 folds.
jhoker calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 9s, 2s, Kc ]
jhoker bets [$2].
Fnord raises [$4].
jhoker calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 5d ]
jhoker checks.
Fnord bets [$4].
jhoker calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ Jh ]
jhoker checks.
Fnord checks.
jhoker shows [ As, 9h ] a pair of nines.
Fnord shows [ Js, Ac ] a pair of jacks.
Fnord wins $29.5 from the main pot with a pair of jacks.

***** Hand History *****
$2/$4 Hold'em
Seat 7 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: floydcat ( $106 )
Seat 3: Fnord ( $185 )
Seat 4: DexterCain ( $49 )
Seat 5: c114b ( $82 )
Seat 6: ythomas ( $73 )
Seat 7: RK808 ( $105.25 )
Seat 8: Hstream ( $158.5 )
Seat 9: edbabs ( $121.75 )
Seat 10: disjunct ( $119.5 )
Seat 2: aauritt ( $80 )
Hstream posts small blind [$1].
edbabs posts big blind [$2].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to Fnord [ Kd Ac ]
disjunct calls [$2].
floydcat folds.
aauritt folds.
Fnord raises [$4].
DexterCain folds.
c114b folds.
ythomas folds.
RK808 folds.
Hstream folds.
edbabs raises [$4].
disjunct folds.
Fnord calls [$2].
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2d, 8h, Tc ]
edbabs bets [$2].
Fnord raises [$4].
edbabs calls [$2].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 8d ]
edbabs checks.
Fnord bets [$4].
edbabs calls [$4].
** Dealing River ** [ 8s ]
edbabs checks.
Fnord checks.
edbabs shows [ Ah, Qh ] three of a kind, eights.
Fnord shows [ Kd, Ac ] three of a kind, eights.
Fnord wins $29.5 from the main pot with three of a kind, eights with king kicker.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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LeFou
Old 11-18-2004, 04:06 PM #14 (permalink)  
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Fnord, I'd appreciate some more KXs hand histories if you've got 'em lying around. This one was instructive.
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Fnord
Old 11-24-2004, 12:15 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Meh, I should have had the balls to have bet at least one of those rivers...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Old 11-24-2004, 12:41 AM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
Quote:
Originally Posted by hypermegachi
Kxs are worth playing in very loose games because if an ace comes, you have the nuts.
Wrong.

It's because the onslaught of loose calls pay you off big enough the few times you're able to make the best hand and it hold up.

In a tighter game, you'll need to win more smaller pots against stronger hands so only the strongest Kxs become playable outside of blind wars.
lol i only found your response today. agree with everything. just to clarify i was talkin about flush draws if there was any confusion :P

Kxs quickly loses value as the number of limpers goes down.

lol i think the funniest part is fnord's big win with K8s...of all the suited kings in my PT database, K8s is by far my biggest loser :P
 
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