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!Luck

10-13-2004, 11:58 PM Post subject: Questions on limit starting hands by..

#1 (permalink)

Full House

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ED MILLER, DAVID SKLANSKY, AND MASON MALMUTH.
I hade Mike send me a PDF file with starting hands on a grid for tight limit game. I have been flowing it yet I cannot believe some of there recommendations.

in the bottom row they recommend for one to play 108s-53s from late position and complete the small blind with xxs. I am curious what Fnord thinks about this. The other thing I do not understand is that a9o is no where on the list, does that mean I can't even play it from button in an unraised pot.

I would think that the only small card below j10s that you can play besides (pockets) would be 67s 87s and only if there are 4(as Fnord mentioned elsewhere) people already in the pot with no raises. So far I am down a little and I wish I could say that was because of bad luck. Actually I received more AA KK and QQ (only they got cracked). Anyways comments appreciated as always.

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Fnord

10-14-2004, 12:22 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

Are these tables from SSH? Certainly go with the tight table for just about any online game above .5/1. The loose table is for when you're dealing with crack babies.

I donno, maybe I play too tight. I just started putting the connectors back into my game in spots. My inital results with them were poor and I had other data suggesting I wasn't missing out on much. Now I tend to bring them in when I have position and can see a flop for 1SB or in spots where I just need a playable hand.

Per the "Any 2 sooted" recommendation in some spots. I went there and got slammed. I've backed off to any 2 suited with a 1 or 2 gaps. No 72s, T4s, etc. I also avoid any hand with a 2 or 3, sooted or not. It really depends on the players, how likely the action is to re-open and how much money is in the pot pre-flop.

For the most part, I just get out of the way when someone with any credibilty raises and otherwise shoot from the HIP. Throw in some pocket pairs, sooted Aces and the rare sooted connector when I can get in cheap or with a lot of other players.

High card power
Initiative
Position

I'll take another look at the tight table when I get home...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

10-14-2004, 12:32 AM

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Quote:

in the bottom row they recommend for one to play 108s-53s from late position and complete the small blind with xxs.

In reality, these hands arent that good. The purpose to play theses hands sometimes is that you have the possibility to win a BIG pot when you do catch because of the unexpectability of those hands. HOWEVER, you have to win more than you lose. Playing these hands in a round with only 3 or 4 people will never win you enough money in the long run. More than likely you would have to be in late position, with a full 7 or 8 people calling preflop with no raising. I personally dont play these hands, and just because they are the bottom of the list means you play these either. Playing quality hands will win you money.

Quote:

The other thing I do not understand is that a9o is no where on the list, does that mean I can't even play it from button in an unraised pot.

From poker tracker stats I have break even at A10, losing money on all Axo, and average on Axs (some flushes, but less than my losses), and above money in all A10s hands and above. One bad thing about A9o is that even if your nine paired, theres a good chance in someone else have a higher pair. Secondly, your A9 will only theoretically beat 7 other Ace holding hands (A2,A3,A4,A5,A6,A7,A8), tieing 1 (A9), and losing to 5 (A10, AJ, AQ, AK). If your Ace pairs, even if you are on button, you will most likely not re-raise because of the fact you are worried about your kicker, and then you are worried about someone else has a smaller kicker but would have 2 pair. Two many worries for me to play that hand. I could argue playing A9s because the extra nut flush outs. Too many hands have you beat and too many conditions have to be met to win with A9o.

Quote:

I would think that the only small card below j10s that you can play besides (pockets) would be 67s 87s and only if there are 4(as Fnord mentioned elsewhere) people already in the pot with no raises.

To tell you the truth, I dont even play J10s unless I'm in the small/big blind. You are only going on a draw and the majority of time it wont hit. Playing a Tight Aggressive Limit game means you have to cut down significantly the number of hands that could be played early on in tournaments where its cheaper to see the cards or in NL where you have the advantage of maximizing your winnings.

I play on average 22% of the flops, not counting the blinds, i'm down to about 12 %. I used to be at 30% flop percentage by playing the hands that you were explaining, the semi-quality hands that IF they hit could be winners. The truth was, my variance was so much, I could hardly break even. Over a period of 100 hands, an 8 % decrease in flop percentage will increase your BB/100 by a difference of 4BB.

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!Luck

10-14-2004, 12:34 AM

#4 (permalink)

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SHH means (Short handed?) Yeah i have been two tabling for about 3 hours now, i have made several seroius mistakes(seeing a straight when in actuallity i had none[never happened in no limit)) I feel like i get tired a lot more quickly in limit then no limit(i would think the opposite) Even for 3 hours. But only because i had a lot more aces and kings then i should of had.

Fnord

10-14-2004, 12:39 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

To tell you the truth, I dont even play J10s unless I'm in the small/big blind. You are only going on a draw and the majority of time it wont hit.

You're throwing money away. If you're on a strong draw with multiple callers, it's a +EV situation. Sometimes you hit, sometimes you don't.... Against a large field it's easier to play a draw than top pair type hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

I play on average 22% of the flops, not counting the blinds, i'm down to about 12 %. I used to be at 30% flop percentage by playing the hands that you were explaining, the semi-quality hands that IF they hit could be winners. The truth was, my variance was so much, I could hardly break even. Over a period of 100 hands, an 8 % decrease in flop percentage will increase your BB/100 by a difference of 4BB.

If a given situation has a positive expectation, you should play it. The more such situations you can find per orbit on average (everyone has the sunk cost of the blinds) the higher your overall win rate will be. The higher your win rate is, the less of a problem variance will be for you. At some point it balances out. You're not doing yourself any favors by lowering variance at the expense of win rate.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

!Luck

10-14-2004, 12:51 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Everytime i think i have a handle on this game, i see there is 10x more to learn. I never thought that a9 would be negative ev, but does that change in NL?

Fnord

10-14-2004, 12:54 AM

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Quote:

Originally Posted by !Luck

Everytime i think i have a handle on this game, i see there is 10x more to learn. I never thought that a9 would be negative ev, but does that change in NL?

LMAO. Probably a worse hand in NL because getting out-kicked will do more damage.

I need to look this one up. I play it in some spots. Heck, in a couple spots I'll play just about any Ace.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

!Luck

10-14-2004, 01:16 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Thank you Fnord. I know this may seem cocky but for the past year I was sure that a9 was good in a full game, now that I will remove from my game I hope that I can do better, though 6 handed or less I like to play, then again it all depends on your competition. Live (at least against) my friends it is easer for me to play because I know how they and against them only one of them will play weird hands so they tend to be a lot easer to read then those at low limits online.

Another hand that i wonder how well you do with is kjo. In tournies i almost always throw it away, early on, unless i am co or button.

Fnord

10-14-2004, 02:11 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Some relevent stats...

~25k hands of 2/4

66 114 times net +$71
55 123 times net -$78.5
44 104 times net +$241
33 134 times net +$168
22 129 times net -148.50
total 604 times net +253.00 +0.1BB/hand

JTs 68 times 86% VP$IP net -$16.50
Two recent flush over flush hands killed it. Used to be one of my biggest winners.

ATs 70 times 82% VP$IP net -$165.25
Only 2 big flush wins, my biggest overall loser but probably a little over-played

ATo 237 times 39% VP$IP net +226.50
A few random huge wins in here, including a broadway with lots of action

A9o 221 times 22% VP$IP net +$45.25
A lot of small wins without showdown

AA 112 times 100% VP$IP net +$1330.75
KK 114 times 100% VP$IP net +$889.50
AK 227 times 99% VP$IP net +$462.50
QQ 130 times 98% VP$IP net +$307.00
JJ 109 times 95% VP$IP net +$310.83
TT 113 times 96% VP$IP net +422.50
99 113 times 93% VP$IP net +109.25

A9s - A2s
630 times 61% VP$IP net +$679

KJs
92 times 94.5% VP$IP net +$195.00

KJo
229 times 41% VP$IP net +176.50

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

10-14-2004, 03:42 AM

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I'm not saying I dont play these hands....but there are factors:

in position only
only play against big stacks
only play in very aggressive games
only when you have good reads
pot odds justify in doing so(with a large amount of players preflop you could just about call any hand due to the fact that any two cards can win, J10s is no exception)

Don't play these everytime you get them, they are very situational. And most situations I feel are not the right situation.

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Fnord

10-14-2004, 03:45 AM

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

Ummm... this is the limit forum....

Small pocket pairs, suited aces and JTs are way better than "any two cards"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

10-14-2004, 03:58 AM

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Quote:

Small pocket pairs, suited aces and JTs are way better than "any two cards"

If ten people play in the hand, with no raising, it puts 5BB in the pot, with you being one of those 10, you have a 10% pot stake.

The probability a 72o has to win is 11.76% preflop.

Thats just about any hand.

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lonnie

10-14-2004, 06:01 AM

#13 (permalink)

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According to Texas Calc - 72o has a 6% chance of winning preflop.

LockLow34

10-14-2004, 02:55 PM

#14 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by !Luck

Thank you Fnord. I know this may seem cocky but for the past year I was sure that a9 was good in a full game, now that I will remove from my game I hope that I can do better

Very good move. A9o is a big dog to AA, KK, QQ, JJ, TT, 99, AK, AQ, AJ, AT; a slight dog to any pair 88-22; it's even money against KQ, KJ, KT, QJ, QT; a slight favorite against any 2 cards that don't include a 9 or A, and a big favorite only against A8-A2. And most people don' t play A8-A2 or if they do they're only looking to flop a flush draw.

The only time I don't muck Axo is if I'm in a steal position when it's been folded to me or I'm in the blinds. And in the blinds I'm looking for a VERY favorable flop - trips or 2 pr or a flush draw (3 suited on the board) with my ace.

Quote:

Originally Posted by !Luck

Another hand that i wonder how well you do with is kjo. In tournies i almost always throw it away, early on, unless i am co or button.

Good philosophy.

Remember though, ANY cards are playable in the right situation (see: Ripptyde). Like Fnord said, you just have to be able to recognize those situations when they come along.

stevedonel

10-14-2004, 04:02 PM

#15 (permalink)

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early in the book, they state something along the lines of "starting hand selection is important, but you make the real money in your post-flop play", I dont think there could be a more true statement about Hold 'Em. The also say "read through the post-flop sections, then reread the starting hand sections" I think this is to give you a better perspective on what you should plan on doing with the different hands.

I am in the same situation as you right now, I know that I should add these drawing hands, but they tend to get me into trouble. For now, I am leaving them out, and will start to add them one at a time after reading SSH a couple times, and improving my post-flop game. From everything I have seen, playing mediocre hands (JTo, 78s) is the majority of playing poker profitably. I am not moving up in limits until I have learned to play this wider range of hands properly.

Is that guy still part of the forum??

littleogre

10-28-2004, 07:10 AM

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littleogre has a little shameless behaviour in the past

where can i see this charts?

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