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Question on 'protecting your hand'

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steviebrutal

12-05-2004, 05:55 AM Post subject: Question on 'protecting your hand'

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Nov 2004

Posts: 96

The principle that "Raising when you should call can cost you a bet, but calling when you should raise can cost you a whole pot" makes sense to me, but it doesn't seem to be paying off like it should.

Unfortunately, im a Mac user (unfortunate for my online poker play, im very happy with my G4 PBook

) so my only PC capabilities are from using Virtual PC to play the PC only poker sites (all but pokerroom.com). Due to the sluggish nature of the PC emulation, I don't really get to track my stats the way I would like - albeit, pokerrom offers minimal statistic reporting.

My question is: do you find this helps you more often than not in the long run? Lately it seems to be costing me money... specifically, when im protecting top pair with a low kicker (this could be a mistake, but thats why im asking). If any of you have any hand examples youve participated in where it really shows its worth, id really appreciate it.

Thanks in advance for any insight guys.

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Fnord

12-05-2004, 06:10 AM

#2 (permalink)

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

I'll turn this around. Can you post some example hands?

Also, much of this only applies when the pot is big.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

12-05-2004, 06:25 AM

#3 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

From my old DB...

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (8 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with K

, 6

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls, MP2 folds, CO raises, Button calls, SB folds, Fnord calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q

, 4

, K

(4 players)
Fnord checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Button folds, Fnord raises, MP1 calls, CO 3-bets, Fnord calls, MP1 calls.

Turn: (8.75 BB) 3

(3 players)
Fnord checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Fnord calls, MP1 calls.

River: (11.75 BB) 6

(3 players)
Fnord checks, MP1 checks, CO bets, Fnord raises, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Final Pot: 15.75 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Kd 6d (two pair, kings and sixes).
CO has Jd Kc (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Fnord wins 15.75 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 2

, K

.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 8

, K

, T

(4 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, MP3 checks, Button bets, SB folds, Fnord raises, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 6

(2 players)
Fnord bets, Button calls.

River: (6 BB) Q

(2 players)
Fnord bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 7 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has 2s Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Fnord wins 7 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with J

, J

.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, Button folds, SB folds, Fnord raises, UTG calls, MP3 calls, CO calls.

Flop: (8.50 SB) 5

, 2

, Q

(4 players)
Fnord checks, UTG checks, MP3 bets, CO folds, Fnord raises, UTG folds, MP3 calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 9

(2 players)
Fnord bets, MP3 calls.

River: (8.25 BB) 7

(2 players)
Fnord bets, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

Results in white below:
Fnord has Jc Js (one pair, jacks).
MP3 has 5c 3h (one pair, fives).
Outcome: Fnord wins 10.25 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is BB with 5

, 7

. MP1 posts a blind of $2.
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, UTG+2 folds, MP1 (poster) checks, MP2 calls, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, Fnord checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5

, 9

, 6

(4 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks, MP1 checks, MP2 bets, SB folds, Fnord raises, MP1 folds, MP2 calls.

Turn: (4 BB) 9

(2 players)
Fnord bets, MP2 folds.

Final Pot: 5 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. Fnord wins 5 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is MP1 with A

, 5

.
UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, Fnord calls, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Button folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 7

, 5

, 7

(4 players)
SB bets, BB folds, UTG folds, Fnord raises, SB calls.

Turn: (4 BB) T

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord bets, SB calls.

River: (6 BB) 2

(2 players)
SB checks, Fnord checks.

Final Pot: 6 BB

Results in white below:
SB has 5h Qd (two pair, sevens and fives).
Fnord has Ac 5c (two pair, sevens and fives).
Outcome: Fnord wins 6 BB.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Fnord is UTG with 4

, A

.
Fnord calls, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, CO calls, Button folds, SB completes, BB raises, Fnord calls, CO calls, SB calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 8

, 5

, 4

(4 players)
SB checks, BB bets, Fnord raises, CO calls, SB calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8 BB) T

(4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Fnord bets, CO calls, SB folds, BB calls.

River: (11 BB) 2

(3 players)
BB checks, Fnord checks, CO checks.

Final Pot: 11 BB

Results in white below:
BB has 6s Qs (high card, queen).
Fnord has 4c Ac (one pair, fours).
CO has 3s 7s (high card, ten).
Outcome: Fnord wins 11 BB.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

12-05-2004, 06:27 AM

#4 (permalink)

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Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

elipsesjeff is an unknown quantity at this point

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Also, much of this only applies when the pot is big.

and when there are many players in the pot (often 1 the same).

Some hands are needed, but you also have to remember 'protecting' your hand is also in the form of check-raising on the flop/turn against draws. Sometimes, raising will do nothing to protect your hand, only adding to the pots you give.

Quote:

Originally Posted by steviebrutal

My question is: do you find this helps you more often than not in the long run? Lately it seems to be costing me money... specifically, when im protecting top pair with a low kicker (this could be a mistake, but thats why im asking).

It also depends on what top pair hand you are talking about. If you are protecting your hand with A4o (hopefully from BB-only) and theres an A on the board, chances are might lose because of the number people that play any Ace. Same thing for Kings too. I've found that the majority of the top-pair no kicker protecting should be done from Queens and lower (Aces and Kings in a shorthanded/tight game).

I'll post some hands in a minute, let me find some I can show you about protecting Top-Pair No kicker and middle pair-Top kicker. I think that probably you are just in a bad run and it will average out in the long run.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

elipsesjeff

12-05-2004, 07:03 AM

#5 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

fnords hands: those are good examples but keep in mind some things:

hand 1: He got lucky in that he outdrew his opponent. Otherwise he would have lost.

hand 6: wtf was up with those players? i still can't believe people play like that at 2/4...anyway, thats just a side note.

Some hands i've got:

Top Pair No Kicker:

Texas Hold'em $1-$2 (real money), hand #463,013,694
Table Wels, 26 Nov 2004 9:39 AM ET

Seat 1: ray zorfold
Seat 2: nyj_fan_re
Seat 3: jack15b
Seat 4: 4strings
Seat 5: Snowman-8-
Seat 6: TeHatBack
Seat 7: Frelled
Seat 8: nlynton
Seat 9: zoe7
Seat 10: CodeRedRulez [ 5S,KS ]
ANTES/BLINDS
CodeRedRulez posts blind ($0.50), ray zorfold posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
nyj_fan_re folds, jack15b calls $1, 4strings folds, Snowman-8- folds, TeHatBack folds, Frelled calls $1, nlynton folds, zoe7 folds, CodeRedRulez calls $0.50, ray zorfold checks.

FLOP [board cards KC,JH,4D ]
CodeRedRulez checks, ray zorfold checks, jack15b checks, Frelled bets $1, CodeRedRulez bets $2, ray zorfold folds, jack15b calls $2, Frelled calls $1.

TURN [board cards KC,JH,4D,3D ]
CodeRedRulez bets $2, jack15b calls $2, Frelled calls $2.

RIVER [board cards KC,JH,4D,3D,9C ]
CodeRedRulez bets $2, jack15b folds, Frelled calls $2.

SHOWDOWN
CodeRedRulez shows [ 5S,KS ]
Frelled mucks cards
CodeRedRulez wins $19.

SUMMARY
Dealer: zoe7
Pot: $20 | Rake: $1
ray zorfold loses $1
nyj_fan_re loses $0
jack15b loses $5
4strings loses $0
Snowman-8- loses $0
TeHatBack loses $0
Frelled loses $7
nlynton loses $0
zoe7 loses $0
CodeRedRulez bets $7, collects $19, net $12

Texas Hold'em $1-$2 (real money), hand #478,346,310
Table Athen, 3 Dec 2004 3:31 PM ET

Seat 2: biggypike
Seat 4: CodeRedRulez [ 9H,AC ]
Seat 6: bonedaddy2
Seat 7: michaeljay
Seat 8: e_cited
Seat 10: dr. bash
ANTES/BLINDS
michaeljay posts blind ($0.50), e_cited posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
dr. bash calls $1, biggypike calls $1, CodeRedRulez bets $2, bonedaddy2 folds, michaeljay folds, e_cited folds, dr. bash calls $1, biggypike calls $1.

FLOP [board cards 5D,3H,9C ]
dr. bash checks, biggypike checks, CodeRedRulez bets $1, dr. bash folds, biggypike calls $1.

TURN [board cards 5D,3H,9C,5H ]
biggypike checks, CodeRedRulez bets $2, biggypike folds.

SHOWDOWN
CodeRedRulez wins $11.25.

SUMMARY
Dealer: bonedaddy2
Pot: $11.50 | Rake: $0.25
biggypike loses $3
CodeRedRulez bets $5, collects $11.25, net $6.25
bonedaddy2 loses $0
michaeljay loses $0.50
e_cited loses $1
dr. bash loses $2

Texas Hold'em $1-$2 (real money), hand #434,893,444
Table Carlsbad, 11 Nov 2004 11:24 AM ET

Seat 1: rokko24
Seat 2: torch02
Seat 3: jeb_31
Seat 4: Gilk44
Seat 5: lunchmoney
Seat 6: CodeRedRulez [ AD,8H ]
Seat 7: bagsley
Seat 8: moose drool
Seat 9: nicktrick
Seat 10: NSM1066
ANTES/BLINDS
lunchmoney posts blind ($0.50), CodeRedRulez posts blind ($1), NSM1066 posts blind ($1).

PRE-FLOP
bagsley calls $1, moose drool folds, nicktrick calls $1, NSM1066 checks, rokko24 folds, torch02 folds, jeb_31 folds, Gilk44 folds, lunchmoney folds, CodeRedRulez checks.

FLOP [board cards AH,4C,10S ]
CodeRedRulez checks, bagsley bets $1, nicktrick folds, NSM1066 calls $1, CodeRedRulez bets $2, bagsley calls $1, NSM1066 calls $1.

TURN [board cards AH,4C,10S,QD ]
CodeRedRulez bets $2, bagsley calls $2, NSM1066 calls $2.

RIVER [board cards AH,4C,10S,QD,7D ]
CodeRedRulez bets $2, bagsley folds, NSM1066 folds.

SHOWDOWN
CodeRedRulez wins $17.75.

SUMMARY
Dealer: Gilk44
Pot: $18.50 | Rake: $0.75
rokko24 loses $0
torch02 loses $0
jeb_31 loses $0
Gilk44 loses $0
lunchmoney loses $0.50
CodeRedRulez bets $7, collects $17.75, net $10.75
bagsley loses $5
moose drool loses $0
nicktrick loses $1
NSM1066 loses $5

Also check out my post about check TPNK play: http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...op+pair+kicker

And i wish i had some middle pair no kicker to show you but I cant find any. Hope these help.

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

Fnord

12-05-2004, 07:41 AM

#6 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Dec 2003

Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

Posts: 19,333

In my defense, a couple of these plays look weird out of context, and/or they could be some older hands.

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

hand 1: He got lucky in that he outdrew his opponent. Otherwise he would have lost.

The Pre-flop and Turn calls were pretty loose. Probably even -EV. However, a raised pot can be very forgiving and at least I had the balls to raise the river when I sucked out...

Quote:

Originally Posted by elipsesjeff

hand 6: wtf was up with those players? i still can't believe people play like that at 2/4...anyway, thats just a side note.

2/4 is just like 1/2. Just a little tighter and more aggressive here and there. The chips are worth twice as much too...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

elipsesjeff

12-05-2004, 03:42 PM

#7 (permalink)

Moderator

Join Date: Jul 2004

Location: Northern Virginia

Posts: 4,900

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

In my defense, a couple of these plays look weird out of context, and/or they could be some older hands.

The suckouts are the greatest when they come when we play the way we should have played.

Quote:

2/4 is just like 1/2. Just a little tighter and more aggressive here and there. The chips are worth twice as much too...

...eventually

Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com

More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.

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Question on 'protecting your hand'

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