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littleogre
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05-04-2006, 08:13 PM
Post subject: Question about limit and never and your money at the table
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#1 (permalink)
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok ever since i first started i would never rebuy at a table untill my money at the table reached 0. How do you guys handle it? Should i always keep x number of blinds on the table or is it ok to let my money hit 0 before i rebuy? I just hate it when suddenly at the end of a bad session i get a monster hand and only have like 4 big bets at the table. I know this may not sem like that big of a deal but by not rebuying untill i hit zero am i not costing myself money in the long run?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
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You should always have at least 12 BB at the table: The maximum of bets you can put in if you were to cap all 4 streets.
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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how much are you buying in for?
I personally Buy in for 20x BB, and if I lose 10X BB without winning anything, I get up and walk away from the table. so at my 3/6 game, I buy in for 120, and if I get down to 60, I get up and walk away. That way, when say I'm at 64 dollars, and I catch a pair of aces, I can effectively go into the hole to defend those aces, and I can walk away when I lose, or be able to adequately defend myself if I end up in a major confrontation. So I guess the answer to your Q is; always have 10BB at least in front of you.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here? 
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
how much are you buying in for?
I personally Buy in for 20x BB, and if I lose 10X BB without winning anything, I get up and walk away from the table. so at my 3/6 game, I buy in for 120, and if I get down to 60, I get up and walk away. That way, when say I'm at 64 dollars, and I catch a pair of aces, I can effectively go into the hole to defend those aces, and I can walk away when I lose, or be able to adequately defend myself if I end up in a major confrontation. So I guess the answer to your Q is; always have 10BB at least in front of you.
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Thats retarded, so you lose 2 back to back hands and you get up?
You should determine when you get up from the table only on two considerations:
1) is the table/seat selection I have good?
2) can I physically and mentally still perform at my optimal level. If you cant mentally play optimally when you lose 10 BB, then maybe you're in the wrong game.
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thenonsequitur
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Full House
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Location: Location
Posts: 637
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I believe that not keeping at least 12BB in front of you is slightly -EV in the long run because it limits the amount you can make in a nuts-vs-2nd-best situation (or similiar cap-every-street situations). These come up rarely enough though that it's not very -EV.
But I believe that letting yourself get very shortstacked (like 4BB for example) is more -EV because not only does it limit the amount you can make on big hands, but it limits the type of lines you can run in common mundane situations.
I tend to rebuy 5 or 10 more BB if my stack gets less than about 18BB, but 12BB is the minimum that I won't let my stack fall below.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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ty to both of you.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
You should always have at least 12 BB at the table: The maximum of bets you can put in if you were to cap all 4 streets.
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2 Thoughts:
o In live games up to 20/40 in Cali or Vegas the turn + river very rarely go past 3 bets. People just aren't as aggressive without nut-like hands. Big pairs almost always miss bets when played at this level. I don't think you're giving up much by only haing 10 bets or so except....
o In Cali there is no cap once the pot is Heads-Up, hence having 20 bets is probably the way to go just in case you get a freeroll or drunk up against you. Just remember that at around 6 bets you really need to give the other guy credit for the nuts or freeroll....
That being said I bring an obscene amount of money with me to play poker. I come to gamble and it's as much about a mindset as it is about practicality. The LAST thing I want to do is leave a great game because I ran bad.
To be more specific.
Right now I regularly play 9/18. I buy-in for $300 and quickly grab another rack for $300 more if I lose a pot or so. I usually have 2 or 3 racks in front of me and enough money in my pocket to buy a few more racks.
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euphoricism
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Your place or my place
Posts: 3,610
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The casino that I most often play at is almost entirely 35+ year old men. They immediately look at my 20 year old ass like a cash register. "He can't POSSIBLY know what he's doing, right? I'm way more expereinced! Hell, he can't even AFFORD this game can he?"
So I feed into that. I generally buy in for 15bb and rebuy liberally. Sometimes Ill throw an extra $5 on the table. Sometimes Ill even throw like, a $5 bill and two $1's. Pure image. I'm broke guys! Playing way higher than I can afford! Lets gamble!
As long as you never play a hand when your stack is below 12bb, I dont care what you buy in for or when you rebuy.
Online, buying in for 15bb + $0.82 might even be worth somethin -- but its too much work for me. The default 25 is fine 
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Ok it looks like you all have differing ideas but you all agree that leting yourself get to zero is a bad idea?
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Ragnar4
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Billings, Montana
Posts: 1,284
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Ragnar4
how much are you buying in for?
I personally Buy in for 20x BB, and if I lose 10X BB without winning anything, I get up and walk away from the table. so at my 3/6 game, I buy in for 120, and if I get down to 60, I get up and walk away. That way, when say I'm at 64 dollars, and I catch a pair of aces, I can effectively go into the hole to defend those aces, and I can walk away when I lose, or be able to adequately defend myself if I end up in a major confrontation. So I guess the answer to your Q is; always have 10BB at least in front of you.
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Thats retarded, so you lose 2 back to back hands and you get up?
You should determine when you get up from the table only on two considerations:
1) is the table/seat selection I have good?
2) can I physically and mentally still perform at my optimal level. If you cant mentally play optimally when you lose 10 BB, then maybe you're in the wrong game. |
This consideration is STRAIGHT from Howard Lederer and Annie Duke. Both suggest after pissing away 10x BB, you get angry, and frustrated, and tank. Simple fact of the matter is, I treat poker like a business, and if my business shows signs of tanking, I get out, and walk away. I can always come back and play tomorrow, refereshed, happy, and the memory or 2 big losses in a row, or sitting there and blinding away half my stack waiting for one playable hand, will be out of my head.
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The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
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elipsesjeff
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Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 4,900
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Fnord
2 Thoughts:
o In live games up to 20/40 in Cali or Vegas the turn + river very rarely go past 3 bets. People just aren't as aggressive without nut-like hands. Big pairs almost always miss bets when played at this level. I don't think you're giving up much by only haing 10 bets or so except....
o In Cali there is no cap once the pot is Heads-Up, hence having 20 bets is probably the way to go just in case you get a freeroll or drunk up against you. Just remember that at around 6 bets you really need to give the other guy credit for the nuts or freeroll....
That being said I bring an obscene amount of money with me to play poker. I come to gamble and it's as much about a mindset as it is about practicality. The LAST think I want to do is leave a great game because I ran bad.
To be more specific.
Right now I regularly play 9/18. I buy-in for $300 and quickly grab another rack for $300 more if I lose a pot or so. I usually have 2 or 3 racks in front of me and enough money in my pocket to buy a few more racks.
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I agree, but the standard answer is always easier than the explaination. Even online I'll let myself get down to 9 BB or so and wait before i enter a hand to reload or just find another table.
Actualy, I've never been so unfortunate to be below 15 BB when buying in for a 25 BB buyin anyway. I personally believe that its how you play that affects how others perceive you and not how much money you have in front. But, there are subtle instances where you are correct.
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Check out my videos at Grinderschool.com
More Full Ring NLHE Cash videos than ANY other poker training site. Training starts at $10/month.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
Ok it looks like you all have differing ideas but you all agree that leting yourself get to zero is a bad idea?
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It depends. Personally, I've done the night of tired + tilt + cold cards often enough to have a good chance of leaving. I've also played enough and studied enough to have a pretty good feel for my edge in a particular LHE game. Hence, I trust my ability to figure out if I'm gambing or not and when to leave. If it's a +EV spot and I got enough gamble in me, I'm gambling and not worrying about money.
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