Originally Posted by Chopper

couple things...

- lol. my hand was bigger!
- love how A8s called a 3bet pre and thought he got jipped out of a big pot when he really got exactly what he deserved.
- whats up with not raising that flop to shut BTN out? you dont care if he calls/3bets/folds/whatever. with the FD up, and the A suggesting tons of action, why arent we trying to cap this flop?
- and, ZOMG why arent we raising this turn? you have to know you will get plenty of action from AK/AQish hands....that should be trying to protect against the flush.

sidebar: this is my current bitch with this level. players wont jam strong hands. (not you necessarily, but the level as a whole) it makes it super hard to slaughter such poor players. with a set of 6's here, i only fear AA. and, i have other stuff that will play with me a lot AND i have to get the money in on the flop with the fd out and a 10 out redraw. i will slow up if i get raised on a scary turn card.

it seems like you were heading for overcalls here when i think you should have been jamming this in hopes of a 3bet on the flop and/or turn.

the river is great, but i dont know what KK is still doing hanging around. doesnt he know that AX smashes him? wow.

Originally Posted by Chopper

2. you just said it. but, i think it bears repeating if anyone new ever comes across this...THESE GUYS WILL PAY OFF.

kornholio said it in a different thread this week.....ASSUME INCOMPETENCE UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.

this are micros, not your 15/30 live games....which to hear you speak arent too much tougher. but, i have a feeling they would be because i am not used to them and would initially give everyone too much credit.

coming from that place, you may be doing the same thing right now. you are possibly assuming the other guy would have folded to your raise because YOU know YOU would have.....and naturally we all assume others think and play like we do to some degree.

if all my other commentary on this site is false, please take this one for gospel....25c/50c players are really pretty bad. when you assume they know what a fold button looks like and stop maxxing your value, 99% of the time you are costing yourself money.

i have been stuck at this level for far too long because of a whole bunch of reasons. but, that doesnt mean i dont know this lever's general play pretty well.

jam like crazy when only rare hands beat you. but, know when to stop....when they jam back and dont stop. if said villain is a maniac, you may want to keep jamming the hand. but, if its ANYONE else, its usually the stone-cold nuts. especially if the turn caps.

they will cap a flop, and slow down to a turn raise. or take a 3bet off on the turn, but cap the river. rarely will they do both, and i cant think of a single time it wasnt the nuts when i held a 2nd best hand.

i hope none of this is coming off arrogant. it isnt meant to.

Originally Posted by KoRnholio

I was going to question the non-raise on the turn as well, but thinking about it a little more, calling gains more most of the time.

Basically, either the button has an ace (a good one) or he doesn't and is hoping his pair is good. If we just call, he is going to pop it with a good ace, and then we can 3bet. He might call once more with a good pp.
But if we raise, he may not 3bet with a good ace, and will very likely fold his pp hands.

Knowing after the fact that he can't fold KK on that board, would probably swing this to a raise on the turn in order to sandwich him. But we didn't have that read until afterwards.

Originally Posted by Chopper

lawdude, i think your "real" question is too specific for this hand. i dont think we assumed KK was in there.

in this spot i am playing towards them having strong draws or TP on the flop because those are two VERY likely holdings based on the preflop action. the flop even suggests a weaker A, pp, and/or flush draw, too. so, that is what i continue to play for.

however, when the turn gives me a boat AND improves a lot of other hands, i assume they have the stronger hands....not the weaker. i dont think a flush draw is folding down here. i think an A may think i am raising light and 3bet, and since he just got coolered, i play for that.

and, the river recoolers that A.

the board was strong, hero kept improving and staying ahead of all else that was improving. to me, that means i keep the gas on. if i was ahead on the flop, i am still ahead. and, my villains will think they overtook me quite often and try and raise me. i want as many bets as possible in the pot when that scenario comes to fruition. i dont want to worry about keeping others in.

thats where i was coming from. i dont know how to prove, mathematically, which of us is more correct here. but, it would be fun to try with hypotheticals that we could agree on. the math is a weaker part of my studying/reviewing. you wanna try and work through this together with ranges and % of folds?

Originally Posted by Chopper

where you say bigger pairs will now fold, i would replace "will" with "should" because we know not all of our villains will fold there.

using your stats as our best source of info at the current time...

btn does the 3betting. would he do this to iso you? have you been running hot and raising a lot or stealing blinds? since we dont have that info, i will assume his range is pretty standard with maybe a 5% portion of sc's or crap in there. so, i default to TT+/AQs+/AKo.

BB is kind of fishy looking, but not super passive, either. so, i would give him about the top 25% of hands. he isnt going to respect 3betting by two tighter players, because he likely isnt paying attention or using software, and i bet he doesnt understand position very well by calling 2 cold from the BB when you may still cap it off. but, being that HE doesnt cap, i can probably take some of the huge hands out like KK+/AKs. so, i give him about 66-QQ,A2s-AQs,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo, which may still be wide, but i think it is cut down a good bit from his vpip of 42%. note how many AX hands and soooooted hands are in there that may contain clubs.

thats preflop, for now. are we agreed on these basic ranges?

Originally Posted by Chopper

as for blind battle...i dont see it that way, personally. again, this is a factor of levels, imo. they dont defend very often...on purpose. they defend because they "already had some money in." much like my home gamers.

your CO steal is fine, but i dont see BTN as a resteal. and, after a resteal, i dont think bb would defend against the two of you. if so, i have my concepts all wrong. and, i also assume you would have put that in when we started debating this if you thought you were up against a resteal.

if the ranges are good with you, we can narrow down the flop a little i guess.