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Hermann the Lombard
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09-21-2007, 05:13 AM
Post subject: QQ v Primo
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#1 (permalink)
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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PokerStars 0.05/0.10 Hold'em (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)
Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q , Q .
UTG raises, Hero 3-bets, 7 folds, UTG caps, Hero calls.
Flop: (9.40 SB) 2 , 4, 9 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.
Turn: (5.70 BB) 8 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.
River: (7.70 BB) 3 (2 players)
UTG bets, Hero calls.
Final Pot: 9.70 BB
About as simple as it gets: I know his hand is primo but not exactly *how* primo, do I call it down like this? The villain is LAG, roughly 42/13/5, OTOH when he goes to SD his win pct. is about 72.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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Raise the flop. A typical UTG raiser might have 88+, AQ+, AJs+, When he bets the flop he could have 88+, AK, AQ. That's 66 combinations of hands and you're ahead of all but 15 of them.
By not raising the flop you're giving naked Aces and Kings cheap cards to draw out on you. The only disadvantage to raising is that he might fold a hand he would have bluffed all three streets with, but given that the worst thing he could have is overcards it's pretty unlikely he's going to fold on the flop or turn. He might even call a river bet with AK. Of course if you're behind or he draws out on you raising the flop will cost you more than calling but the odds are too much in your favor to play this hand passively.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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bigspenda73
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Straight Flush
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Pwnsylvania
Posts: 7,545
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I think it's fine, we're losing the minimum here if we're beat and frankly I don't think we're getting much value out of worser hands if we decide to raise somewhere. I also do not like DrivingDog's PF range, I think it's much tighter ONCE he caps PF.
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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I like the way you played it. The pf cap tells me he likely has aces or kings but i think they will have Ak or Aq or be on some sorta crazy bluff often enough to call. I don't really like the idea of raising the flop. I just don't see any value in it. You will scare off worse hands and better hands will just reraise you. Personally i wold try to get to sd as painlessly as possible.
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Hermann the Lombard
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Flush
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 270
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I also thought his range for a cap was tighter, and my idea was indeed to get out as cheaply as possible. Now I suppose if I raised the flop and he re-raised I'd have a fair idea that it might be good to pull the ripcord. Anyway, I'm glad to hear that my line was reasonable. I guess if the situation came up more than once with some of the same opponents (and similar situations are not rare) then it would pay to vary my play a bit. It seems to me that there isn't a huge EV difference between the flop raise and the flop call.
Thinking about this a bit more, the pace of his betting suggested that either (a) he had AA or KK or (b) he wanted to convince me that he did. Instant bets. If he had the nuts he would want me out of there in case I was more likely to improve (i.e. AKs) than he was.
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BennyLaRue
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Full House
Join Date: Sep 2007
Posts: 646
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by littleogre
I like the way you played it. The pf cap tells me he likely has aces or kings but i think they will have Ak or Aq or be on some sorta crazy bluff often enough to call. I don't really like the idea of raising the flop. I just don't see any value in it. You will scare off worse hands and better hands will just reraise you. Personally i wold try to get to sd as painlessly as possible.
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The value in raising the flop would be to possibly convince AK to fold but there's a chance he'll call and pay to see the turn and river anyway with that holding. I think this is largely read dependant.
I raise the flop and call down if reraised, but I don't hate your play either.
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DrivingDog
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Full House
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: UK
Posts: 923
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I don't think you're scaring off overcards, TT or JJ by raising the flop. Also even if his capping range is AA, KK, AK you're still ahead most of the time.
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"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
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littleogre
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Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,344
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by DrivingDog
I don't think you're scaring off overcards, TT or JJ by raising the flop. Also even if his capping range is AA, KK, AK you're still ahead most of the time.
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no but you will put hands like TT into check call mode. Also depending on villans pf aggression TT-JJ are not likely holdings.
Here is a question suppose Villan is a real tight ass. Do we assume we need a set to take the lead. I see players all the time that never cap with anything less then aces. Heck i see some playes that want even 3-bet with anything less then aces. Also question from the opposite end of the spectrum what if they are a spewtard and have the outlook of I'm geting the last bet in come hell or highwater? I see those types all the time aswell but not as often.
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dsaxton
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4-of-a-Kind
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Arlington, VA
Posts: 2,667
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I would rather raise the turn than the flop. Some players even get scared and just call down with K-K and A-A when you take this line.
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