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JakTanner

08-06-2006, 01:55 AM Post subject: QQ scary flop

#1 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 5

First off, if there is an easy way to post Noble Poker hand histories could you let me know. I love viewing them that way, but its a pain to communicate hands.

3rd hand at the table, no reads
Qc Qd Middle Position
2 new people post BB behind me

UTG+1 calls
I raise
BB posters, blinds, and UTG+1 all call

Flop: Ah Ad 5h
Blinds check
UTG+1 Bets
I fold
Poster A Folds
Poster B raises
Blinds Fold
UTG+1 calls

Turn Qs
UTG+1 Check
Poster B Check

River 3c
UTG+1 Bet
Poster B Call

Results
UTG+1: 5d5c Fives Full of Aces
Poster B: 3h7h

First off i completely understand that hitting the two outter on the turn is not a valid reason to have stayed in this pot. I also feel that it is not correct to assume pocket fives from the bettor (i assumed an ace)
I am just curious if i was correct to assume that someone most likely had an ace and fold, or if i should have stayed/raised.

Also, would the play be changed on a JJ5 flop or a 665 flop?

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euphoricism

08-06-2006, 02:46 AM

#2 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

With implied odds which are often huge here, its almost always worth it to peel one and re-evaluate on the turn.

I *sometimes* raise the flop, to see what people behind me will do. If anyone cold calls, you're beat. But if you get the button, you can often get a free river card, as the person wants to c/r.

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Ragnar4

08-06-2006, 08:47 AM

#3 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

This horse is dead, but I'm going to beat the hell out of it anyway. The most aggressive and succuessful players are willing to get into a confrontation on the flop, and make a decision on the turn.

UTG+1 bets, you should raise here. Maybe he's way ahead, he's going to let you know, with a re-raise. Maaaaybe he's stealing, he's going to let you know, with a call, or even a fold. Say he re-raises, now it's up to you to evaluate his play. You've been playing with UTG+1 for a few hands. Is he the kind of guy that would 3-bet on the flop without the goods? If he is, you re-raise and see where things go from there. If he only bets with the goods, you can release right there and be confident in your release.

Your confrontation earns you some very interesting things. Turn comes, and he checks, but you didn't catch your queen on the turn, you check and the other guy checks because he watched you drop trou and flop it on the table just one card earlier. He isn't going to mess with you... And on the river, you catch your queen, you came from waaay behind, because they were terrified of the fact that you'll keep plugging away.

Back to reality, you confront on the flop, and you catch on the turn, he checks, and you bet, he calls you down and pays you off.

With such a strong hand, you should be willing to prove your a man when it's cheap, and then check/call or fold depending on whether or not they have the juevos to keep going on the turn. Aggression makes players make mistakes.

Some may argue that this is over aggressive, and that youre beaten by any ace. true, but with 2 on the board, there is less of a chance your opponent has one, and to follow that argument up, I ask you, who here can name one player that made it big by being passive and not using flop bets to discover information?

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

euphoricism

08-06-2006, 09:07 AM

#4 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

If villain1 leads out, you raise, and villain2 calls behind you, you're almost never, ever, good without improving.

It matters a lot more your position. If youre close to the button and believe you can buy the button with a flop raise, then absolutely take it and plan to check through the turn UI (and usually auto-call the river, or bet if checked to) If there are several people behind you left to act, though, your flop raise isn't likely to accomplish much. Its a tough spot, in that case.

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bigspenda73

08-06-2006, 10:31 PM

#5 (permalink)

Straight Flush

Join Date: Jul 2006

Location: Pwnsylvania

Posts: 7,545

bigspenda73 will become famous soon enough

"If villain1 leads out, you raise, and villain2 calls behind you, you're almost never, ever, good without improving"

Really? I think you can still be good. Look at what hands would lead at this flop, any middle pair, and probably a 5 against an aggressive opponent. What hands would cold call, the flush draws certainly would. It would be interesting to know what limits you're at tho, that could help us understand a bit of the abilities of your opponents.

I raise the flop bet and try and steal the button, if I am cold called behind I put them on the flush draw and I know I can check the turn and get a free river card.

euphoricism

08-07-2006, 12:12 AM

#6 (permalink)

4-of-a-Kind

Join Date: Mar 2005

Location: Your place or my place

Posts: 3,610

You're wrong. If you can put them on the flush draw, you absolutely do NOT want to check through the turn and let them see the card that beats you for free. Much better to bet/fold in that case.

<Staxalax> Honestly, #flopturnriver is the one thing that has improved my game the most.
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Ragnar4

08-07-2006, 01:45 AM

#7 (permalink)

Full House

Join Date: Sep 2005

Location: Billings, Montana

Posts: 1,284

I agree with Euph there.

Remember Limit hold'em is about making players make poor decisions. Paying to draw out is always a worse decision than drawing out for free. Mason and Malmuth refer to giving an opponent a free card and having him catch up a "Mathematical Catastrophe" It's because you've mixed a zero into a series of multipliers, causing the hand to go awry.

If you fail to protect your hand by not betting it when you percieve you have the lead, you deserve to lose it IMO.

The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?

JakTanner

08-08-2006, 05:44 AM

#8 (permalink)

Join Date: Aug 2006

Posts: 5

thank you for your input. My major area of improvement is midling hand flop play. Too often do I make the correct reads and still call down a hand i know ive lost, or I fold a hand to see it would be the winner. This hand was at the 1/2$ limit table btw.

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