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QQ, JJ in the big blind

  
 
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Lance
Old 03-19-2009, 04:43 PM     Post subject: QQ, JJ in the big blind #1 (permalink)  
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in ALHS is written "A major exception is QQ and JJ in the big blind. DO not raise from this spot against more than two oppoenents. You can no longer eliminate players by raising".

We raise it for a value, right ? Not for pushing opponents away !?

Would you raise KJo in the small blind with 2 limpers in front of you ?
I think, I saw it in Asdpikas's 1st video....He did it
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asdpikas
Old 03-20-2009, 03:48 AM #2 (permalink)  
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yeah, i did it! LOL

seriously, always raise QQ, JJ. Those hands are too huge not to raise them.

The KJo, i dont recommend always. You may do it in 6max if you feel you have a postflop edge (villains play badly) and are ready to give up to action on the bad flops.
I will raise KJs almost 100% just because it plays better oop.

Back to topic: QQ, JJ = HUGE HANDS. Raise for value
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Chopper
Old 03-20-2009, 06:56 AM #3 (permalink)  
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if you arent raising JJ+, you need to play pinochle instead. (not a slam on you, lance, just the authors of the book.)
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Fnord
Old 03-20-2009, 09:02 AM #4 (permalink)  
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From the BB against limpers.

TT+, AK, any two cards Ten or Better suited. AQ is a thin value raise, but checking is fine for deception and pot control. KQ has a little deception value with a raise. AJ is a clear check. If it's just a single limper and the small blind in the pot, then I'm adding a whole bunch of shit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Trons
Old 03-20-2009, 11:37 AM #5 (permalink)  
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 I think the reason the authors were staying not to raise JJ and TT from the BB in a multi-way pot is because you get anybody to fold and these hands fear over cards because of the hands that people limp with. IF an A, K or Q hits the flop, all of a sudden, we've turned a great hand into either a throw away hand (in a Large pot that's rough) or a bluffing hand (again, depending on the lvl, a rough way to play.

Since you'll be OOP for the rest of the hand, it's tough to play it because unless you have a decent read that you can out play them postflop. Where it gets really rough is when an A falls on the flop and you decide not to c-bet and it checks around to LP and he bets...is he betting because he has an A or because he's sitting on 99 and nobody else bet?

I usually go about 50/50 raise/check in the BB with hands like these.

Heads-up or against LP players, I'll raise...if there is even one solid player in the pot, I'll usually check behind and hope for a safe flop or a set.

I honestly don't think there is anything wrong with playing strong hands like JJ and TT for set value from the blinds.

Hands like KJ, QT, and such are a little different imo because when they hit the flop, it's usually very hard and almost always well hidden so they are pretty easy to play OOP. The other thing about these hands is that they are easy to let go on a missed flop even if the pot is large. A lot of people have a hard time letting go of JJ if a K hits and that can get expensive against even one other decent player.
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Trons is right!
Jsttrons
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-20-2009, 01:45 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
A lot of people have a hard time letting go of JJ if a K hits and that can get expensive against even one other decent player.
Then thats the leak they should be fixing. Not raising doesnt fix it, and it is a big mistake.

There is NO hand that doesnt fear SOME flops... Even AA. If you dont raise JJ because sometimes overcards may kill your hand, then you shouldnt play poker.
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LawDude
Old 03-20-2009, 05:47 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
I think the reason the authors were staying not to raise JJ and TT from the BB in a multi-way pot is because you get anybody to fold and these hands fear over cards because of the hands that people limp with. IF an A, K or Q hits the flop, all of a sudden, we've turned a great hand into either a throw away hand (in a Large pot that's rough) or a bluffing hand (again, depending on the lvl, a rough way to play.
It's strange of me to say this because my last live session featured 5 suckouts to beat my high pocket pairs over the course of three hours, but this is way too reductive. Yes, people call with an ace. So what? Everyone knows that if an ace hits the board, you have to proceed with caution. That's true even if you have kings!

But K's and Q's and J's hitting the board in a raised pot aren't nearly the scare cards that you are making them out to be, unless you have a player who will routinely call your preflop raises with Kx, Qx, or Jx. Much of the time, if not most of the time, you are going to be ahead even if one overcard hits the board, as long as it isn't an ace.
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Fnord
Old 03-20-2009, 07:01 PM #8 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
I think the reason the authors were staying not to raise JJ and TT from the BB in a multi-way pot is because you get anybody to fold and these hands fear over cards because of the hands that people limp with. IF an A, K or Q hits the flop, all of a sudden, we've turned a great hand into either a throw away hand (in a Large pot that's rough) or a bluffing hand (again, depending on the lvl, a rough way to play.
Throw away that book.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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mgn465
Old 03-20-2009, 08:49 PM #9 (permalink)  

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ye Raise obviously (Y)...think beyond...
If, after the first twenty minutes, you don't know who the sucker at the table is, it's you.
 
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KoRnholio
Old 03-20-2009, 10:31 PM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
I think the reason the authors were staying not to raise JJ and TT from the BB in a multi-way pot is because you get anybody to fold and these hands fear over cards because of the hands that people limp with. IF an A, K or Q hits the flop, all of a sudden, we've turned a great hand into either a throw away hand (in a Large pot that's rough) or a bluffing hand (again, depending on the lvl, a rough way to play.
That logic doesn't make much sense to me. What they might have meant is that bloating the pot preflop, out of position, with a hand that needs protecting, is that it creates schooling. (See the active thread in the live poker forum)

If we take a flop with 6 players, a raise or check-raise can fold out weak overcard/draw hands. But if the pot is all of a sudden 12SB before the flop, people will be getting correct odds to chase their ace/one overcard/gutshots. And when they get there, the pot will be so big on the river that we feel we can't fold.
Some days it feels like I've been standing forever, waiting for the bank teller to return so I can cash in all these Sklansky Bucks.
 
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Airles™
Old 03-20-2009, 10:32 PM #11 (permalink)  
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Um yeah, raise it up JJ+. I'd say TT is a bit more dependent on the situation but it's definitely not a 100% complete/check from the blinds.

Today's session would prove otherwise, since EVERY FUCKING TIME I had any premium pair, I'd get around 3 callers and the flop brought an Ace. Not one of those hands can I really say "Ugh, I played that bad". I minimized my losses on those hands, which is all you can really do. It still sucks donkey balls though when you run like that.

Anyway, by raising in those situations, you are going to LOSE money at times. Don't get discouraged. Just minimize your losses when you feel you're beat, but get aggressive when you feel you're ahead. In these situations, you're going to make the most money against villains who chase their overcards and draws, have a lower pocket pair than you, or pair their overcards while you hit a set.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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LawDude
Old 03-20-2009, 10:35 PM #12 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoRnholio
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
I think the reason the authors were staying not to raise JJ and TT from the BB in a multi-way pot is because you get anybody to fold and these hands fear over cards because of the hands that people limp with. IF an A, K or Q hits the flop, all of a sudden, we've turned a great hand into either a throw away hand (in a Large pot that's rough) or a bluffing hand (again, depending on the lvl, a rough way to play.
That logic doesn't make much sense to me. What they might have meant is that bloating the pot preflop, out of position, with a hand that needs protecting, is that it creates schooling. (See the active thread in the live poker forum)

If we take a flop with 6 players, a raise or check-raise can fold out weak overcard/draw hands. But if the pot is all of a sudden 12SB before the flop, people will be getting correct odds to chase their ace/one overcard/gutshots. And when they get there, the pot will be so big on the river that we feel we can't fold.
That doesn't make sense either, though, because in a 6 player flop, raising TT is a positive expected value play based on set-mining alone, even before we take into account the possibility of flopping an overpair or having the tens hold up despite an overcard.
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Chopper
Old 03-20-2009, 10:42 PM #13 (permalink)  
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today i played some 25/50c and every time i pulled a high pp, i got called down by 55 or some crap....and they tried to bluff me!

i also played some 50/1 and every time i had a high pp, i ran up against a set or a better pair.

go figure.

bottom line: i am likely set-mining TT- in multi-way scenarios from ep, but not JJ+.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Trons
Old 03-21-2009, 01:56 AM #14 (permalink)  
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 I am apparently in the minority here, but JJ and TT are hands that I play cautiously from the blinds if it's a multi way pot (more then before it gets to me).

With the pot odds, they are getting the odds to correctly call PF with a huge range of hands and playing them post flop OOP can be difficult.

I feel that I make the most money by forcing opponents to make mistakes and if I'm giving them odds to call PF with a wide range of hands then even if they are donkeys, it's still not a mistake.

Stove it sometime with 4+ players and you'll see that while you are ahead, they aren't far enough behind (with a huge range of hands) to make calling PF a mistake. I'd rather find better situations.

I also like these hands from the blinds in a limped pot (if I've limped) for the c/r if the flop comes all lower cards...you can usually project power and get the same people who would have had the odds to correctly call PF to make the same mistake by calling 2 cold post flop with weaker hands...

Just my opinion on these types of hands...I draw the line at JJ...QQ+ i'm always raising.
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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue
Trons is right!
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Airles™
Old 03-21-2009, 02:28 AM #15 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trons
Stove it sometime with 4+ players and you'll see that while you are ahead...
That's reason enough to raise right there. You're not raising to push people out, you're raising for value because you are ahead. You may not be after the flop every time, but the slight edge is enough to make it a +EV play in the long run.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Chopper
Old 03-21-2009, 10:18 PM #16 (permalink)  
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close to our situation. too weak? 2nd hand at table...no reads.

PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
UTG calls, MP calls, 1 fold, Button calls, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls

Flop: (10 SB) A, Q, 4 (5 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, 2 folds, Hero folds

Turn: (6 BB) 7 (2 players)
BB bets, UTG calls

River: (8 BB) 3 (2 players)
BB bets, 1 fold

Total pot: $8 (8 BB) | Rake: $0.35
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Airles™
Old 03-21-2009, 10:25 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Good fold. You know with 5 players at least one of those pricks has at least an Ace. What would be your line with only a 3-way pot on the same flop? Check-call, bet, or check-raise? Or would you check-fold as you did here taking into account you had no reads?
Quote:
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The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Fnord
Old 03-21-2009, 10:29 PM #18 (permalink)  
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I might bet the flop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y
 
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Chopper
Old 03-21-2009, 10:58 PM #19 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I might bet the flop.
i thought about it. but, i just felt with this many players there HAD to be an A or Q out. besides, it was the first two players that bet and called, not the last two to act. and, i will never know where i am on the turn because these douches never raise the weaker A's. so, i am likely drawing to 2 outs w/ only a semi-good backdoor to a frrrrrush.

w/ 3 players i bet this flop, and i c/r it some. i dont just c/f it yet. however, if called, i likely c/f the turn if both called. if HU, i may look for a scare card, but am likely done being aggressive and am 50/50 as to whether i even call him down.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Airles™
Old 03-21-2009, 11:41 PM #20 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i will never know where i am on the turn because these douches never raise the weaker A's.


That's an all too familiar tune.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Chopper
Old 03-22-2009, 12:01 AM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airles™
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chopper
i will never know where i am on the turn because these douches never raise the weaker A's.


That's an all too familiar tune.
trudat. but, i dont like being oop into several players that wont raise to either gain more value or protect their hand. if i bet the flop, i tend to continue into callers (not here, but in general), and when they just call along with TP+, it pisses me off. it's fairly inexpensive, but it pisses me off.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-22-2009, 03:56 AM #22 (permalink)  
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good c/f chopper.
that's where many ppl go wrong! They get married to their pair. And then all these baaad reasonings about not raising start to develop.
"could I take out every woman and child in a border town?"
For the right to be governed, waste them without mercy.
When you've decided. Meet me at the airport.
 
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LawDude
Old 03-22-2009, 04:29 AM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fnord
I might bet the flop.
This is where you need reads. Big time.

Of course one of these guys may have the ace. And if they don't, we're probably ahead.

Normally, I bet in this situation. I know betting for information is a secondary purpose of betting, not it's primary purpose, but on most tables you will bet several callers or a raise if someone has an ace and you'll get several folders and zero or one call if nobody does. And of course, if you are ahead, you just built the pot.

But you can't bet it every time. On a table with lots of aggressive players who will raise with underpairs, draws, or to set up bluffs (which happens every once in awhile at the live tables I play at), you aren't going to get the information you want. And then it's a bad play to bet with this many other players in the hand.
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Airles™
Old 03-22-2009, 02:44 PM #24 (permalink)  
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Okay, say you bet here. You get two callers. The turn is a blank, now what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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asdpikas
Old 03-22-2009, 02:47 PM #25 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airles™
Okay, say you bet here. You get two callers. The turn is a blank, now what?
easy c/f
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Chopper
Old 03-22-2009, 02:49 PM #26 (permalink)  
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i was more worried about the Q than the A, but with a caller and two more players to act (that folded), i felt the A became a big possibility. either way, if i bet, i have to fold the turn ui to two callers, imo. so, what's the point? do i actually think i will fold off 4 others with an A, Q, flush draw, and some straight draws out? with my lonely little OBVIOUS cbet?

to me, this is one of those spots where our hand looked fine pf, but the flop (and our position) turns it to complete junk. there is just not enough possibility of improvement for us to overtake what we are behind or stay ahead of what hands are chasing us.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Airles™
Old 03-22-2009, 03:06 PM #27 (permalink)  
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My thoughts exactly Chopper. But going back to the OP, it was still correct to raise pre-flop because we're generally ahead at that point. Shitty flops happen. If we can give up our big pairs in spots like this early like you did here, we're saving ourselves a lot of money in losing situations. Only a fish would check/call here and check/raising is borderline spewing. So either we bet (and we probably learn next to nothing) or we check/fold (which is pretty much our only option). We can't run this hand through enough times to make it profitable. But again, just to reiterate to the OP, raise, raise, raise pre-flop and do what Fnord said and throw that book away. LOL
Quote:
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The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Chopper
Old 03-22-2009, 03:23 PM #28 (permalink)  
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since it seems we are talking about "the line" being TT/JJ, i thought i'd search my db for TT in the BB and see what happened. here are the only 3 hands out of the last 1000. seems i am more aggressive with TT than i might have said....lol.

we can talk about raising/limping TT pf, but i still think raising is better in all three hands. hand one, i raise because i just dont respect the level anymore. hand two, i 3bet because we are 4-handed and btn could be stealing with crap. hand three, i 3bet to thin it out AND capitalize on set value if they all call anyway.

one... this is why i have a love/hate relationship with this level. villain showed K7 and NEVER raised!
PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, 10
2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, Hero raises, CO calls, Button calls, 1 fold

Flop: (7 SB) 3, 7, 7 (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, Button calls

Turn: (5 BB) 5 (3 players)
Hero bets, CO calls, 1 fold

River: (7 BB) A (2 players)
Hero bets, CO calls

Total pot: $4.50 (9 BB) | Rake: $0.20

two.. why i gave up idk. i felt like a one pair hand was beat, but i forgot it was a 3bet pot. arrrg. obv, i didnt like that river. river cant still be b/f can it?
PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (4 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, 10
1 fold, Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls

Flop: (6.4 SB) 3, 6, 5 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button calls

Turn: (4.2 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls

River: (8.2 BB) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks

Total pot: $4.10 (8.2 BB) | Rake: $0.20

three.. what else do we do here? JAM JAM JAM and hope they hit something, too. this is why i am telling you in my AA hand i dont limp sb often, etc. i dont slowplay, and i think this hand will go a ways in showing y'all that i dont....lol.
PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with 10, 10
1 fold, MP calls, 2 folds, SB raises, Hero 3-bets, MP calls, SB calls

Flop: (9 SB) 2, 10, 5 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, SB calls

Turn: (6 BB) 10 (3 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, MP calls, 1 fold

River: (8 BB) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets, 1 fold

Total pot: $8 (8 BB) | Rake: $0.35
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Airles™
Old 03-22-2009, 05:54 PM #29 (permalink)  
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That first hand tilts me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Chopper
Old 03-22-2009, 06:03 PM #30 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airles™
That first hand tilts me.
like i said.....love/hate, baby.
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Airles™
Old 03-23-2009, 02:00 AM #31 (permalink)  
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PokerStars Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
2 folds, MP1 calls, 1 fold, CO raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, MP1 calls, CO calls

Flop: (10 SB) 3, K, 6 (3 players)
Hero bets, 2 folds

Total pot: $2.50 (5 BB) | Rake: $0.10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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Chopper
Old 03-23-2009, 01:03 PM #32 (permalink)  
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MP1 is my new best friend. and, how did they both fold?

gottaluv 25c/50c. i am surprised you didnt get to showdown with 77 and A6. however, you still cbetting that when the flop comes A K 6 two-tone?
LHE is a game where your skill keeps you breakeven until you hit your rush of random BS.

Nothing beats flopping quads while dropping a duece!
 
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Airles™
Old 03-23-2009, 02:26 PM #33 (permalink)  
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Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 317
Airles™
Yeah probably LOL depends on how weak/passive the villains are. I'm donking this flop all day because these weak tight morons probably put me on AK with the 3-bet.

A6, haha. Been there, seen that. Bottom pair, top kicker. Hahahaha.
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Originally Posted by Carroters
The solution to getting 1 outered is a simple one. We just need to find the site that is the least rigged.
 
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PlayinLdP
Old 04-02-2009, 02:34 PM #34 (permalink)  

Join Date: Mar 2009
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PlayinLdP
I disagree. You most likely have the best hand here, it only makes sense to raise and make the callers pay. You have to be prepared to lose with these hands and fold them when the boards doesn't co-operate. But you are also going to flop huge and get paid of too. Build the pot! Even if your edge is small or less then half vs the feild which it almost always is, you are still most likely the favourite vs any one player. with QQ there is only a 37% chance of and over-card flopping and 50% with JJ. Im not afraid of one OC, but two I'm not putting anymore in the pot. I bet out with one OC and see where I stand with my pocket pair. If I get rasied back and the field is down to me and the rasier, I probably check-call this down. You are OOP and many hands IP will make a move with a semi-bluff hand for a free cards. If there is a raise and another caller, I muck it.
I have run into the same line of thought with players in live play. I see the argument that you are an underdog vs. the feild and OOP. This happens all the time in poker and thats why it can be hard to lose with good hands. I think you have to take the small edges you recieve and run with them. In the long run it will work out.
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