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QQ - Ace flops

  
 
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Skeeno
Old 01-27-2008, 05:12 PM     Post subject: QQ - Ace flops #1 (permalink)  
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Should I be re-raising this flop as played or shut down completely?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (8 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q.
UTG calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

Flop: (8 SB) 4, A, 7 (4 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP2 folds, Hero raises, BB calls, UTG calls.

Turn: (7 BB) K (3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks.

River: (7 BB) 8 (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 10 BB
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Ragnar4
Old 01-27-2008, 06:58 PM #2 (permalink)  
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Hero bets out Flop
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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snowboard_31
Old 01-27-2008, 07:28 PM #3 (permalink)  
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yah bet the flop, but as played I would fold river, you have a bet and call infront of you with two overs.
1. Get a seat to their right
2. Steal blinds at will
3. ...
4. Profit
"It should be a crime to not bet if someone has checked to you twice."
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DrivingDog
Old 01-27-2008, 07:44 PM #4 (permalink)  
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Flop is ugly but you have to bet. Probably fold to a raise. Once K comes on the turn you can switch your attention to another table because you are done with this hand.

River overcall is making me want to cry. You have to fold this, no question.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Skeeno
Old 01-27-2008, 08:44 PM #5 (permalink)  
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Yeah I totally butchered that hand

Here's another later, similar sort of flop with QQ, played far more aggressively on the flop - if he caps we know we're beat right?

PokerStars 0.50/1.00 Hold'em (9 handed) Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q, Q.
6 folds, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, Button calls.

Flop: (7 SB) K, 8, 9 (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero 3-bets, Button folds.

Final Pot: 5.5 BB
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DrivingDog
Old 01-27-2008, 09:26 PM #6 (permalink)  
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Against passive opponent who will only cap with a K, I like the flop 3bet. Against guys who will raise a gutshot, A9, FD, etc. I call the flop raise and c/r the turn. Then you can fold to a 3bet but otherwise it's valuetown.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Hermann the Lombard
Old 01-28-2008, 07:17 PM #7 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragnar4
Hero bets out Flop
Why bet *if* you're confident that you can get in the check-raise? Obviously you don't want to give a free card. Also, if it comes back to you 2 bets you can probably get out.

Is the idea that a hand that beats you already (Ax or KK or a set) will probably raise you on the flop? I'm so used to the large number of people who slow play even AA to the turn that I discount the lack of flop action.
Oh, no! Not another learning experience!
 
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DrivingDog
Old 01-28-2008, 07:35 PM #8 (permalink)  
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On this flop you're betting out because you're hoping that your preflop raise and the Ace on board will make anyone without an Ace fold. Given the absence of draws on the flop, if you get called you should be trying to get to showdown cheaply if it's HU, or more likely folding if it's multiway.

Checking the flop is tantamount to saying 'i don't have an Ace'. Check-raising the flop is saying 'i have a big Ace' when you don't. If you're going to c/r the flop, you need to bet the turn no matter what and hope villian was just taking a stab at it with a smaller pp. Once you're cold called by the BB on the flop, AND the K comes, forget it. You're not winning this one.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Hermann the Lombard
Old 01-31-2008, 06:25 PM #9 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DrivingDog
Checking the flop is tantamount to saying 'i don't have an Ace'. Check-raising the flop is saying 'i have a big Ace' when you don't. If you're going to c/r the flop, you need to bet the turn no matter what and hope villian was just taking a stab at it with a smaller pp. Once you're cold called by the BB on the flop, AND the K comes, forget it. You're not winning this one.
Well, my first thought here is that I *like* saying "I have a big Ace" in the hopes of getting a King to fold, or in rare cases getting a weak Ace to fold. Yes you do need to bet the turn after the flop c/r, especially a turn King to say "I don't care if you have a King." Spew?
Oh, no! Not another learning experience!
 
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DrivingDog
Old 02-01-2008, 09:32 AM #10 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermann the Lombard
Well, my first thought here is that I *like* saying "I have a big Ace" in the hopes of getting a King to fold, or in rare cases getting a weak Ace to fold. Yes you do need to bet the turn after the flop c/r, especially a turn King to say "I don't care if you have a King." Spew?
Yeah a bit. We bet out the flop because we were the preflop aggressor and to find out where our second pair is at. It should be enough to get a King to fold. Nothing is getting an Ace to fold. So bet and usually fold to a raise. If we get called on the flop, just go into c/c mode or fold to a turn bet, depending on reads. Usually the latter.

Check-raising should never be done as a bluff into multiple opponents. Pound a mutliway pot with your strong hands, not your mediocre ones.
"You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you want to concentrate on." (George Bush).
 
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Ragnar4
Old 02-01-2008, 11:49 AM #11 (permalink)  
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The reason the hero bets the flop instead of CR'ing is because A) he can fold to a re-raise. B) It would really suck to give a freecard C) checking here waves a big flag saying "I don't have AK, and the subsequent raise will 9 times out of 10 cause your opponent to hunkerdown and go into check/call mode. It's really odd, you say: I check raise, and your opponent thinks... Guess I better call down with my top pair crap kicker. When that same opponent would get scared to a lead out bet.
The older I get, the more I start wondering; Just what in the hell is going on here?
 
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arborman
Old 02-05-2008, 07:43 PM #12 (permalink)  
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I suck at playing queens for the reasons displayed in this hand. Jacks are more profitable for me because they are that much easier to get away from.
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