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Purposefully Passive AK

  
 
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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 02:43 AM     Post subject: Purposefully Passive AK #1 (permalink)  
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Party Poker 5/10 Hold'em (5 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: FlopTurnRiver)

Preflop: Hero is MP with A, K.
1 fold, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 3, K, 8 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) 5 (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB calls.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Results in white below:
SB has Ac Jh (high card, ace).
Hero has Ad Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins 8.50 BB.
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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 02:46 AM #2 (permalink)  
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I was planning on raising that river no matter what came out, BTW. Although he checked it, which I guess makes it moot.
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midas06
Old 05-11-2006, 02:52 AM #3 (permalink)  
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ni han
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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 03:46 AM #4 (permalink)  
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do we like?
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thenonsequitur
Old 05-11-2006, 04:21 AM #5 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
do we like?
Against an aggressive opponent, I like.
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thenonsequitur
Old 05-11-2006, 04:22 AM #6 (permalink)  
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To be more specific, you are considerably more likely to be against a hand that didn't hit much (or a pocket pair smaller than kings) than one that did. And against a hand that didn't hit, this line wins the most without much risk IF your opponent will keep stabbing at it.

The fact that he checked the river doesn't really matter. If you had raised that turn, he would have either folded right there or check/folded the river, and if you had capped preflop he'd be less likely to take stabs at the pot with A-high later, so you didn't really lose anything by taking this line.

Then again, I play lower stakes than you and have played less than you, so you anything correct about this post you already know. Just affirming that I like it too.
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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 04:37 AM #7 (permalink)  
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Yes, I should have mentioned that this guy is your standard TAG who plays decently well.


Thats exactly my thought process sequitur.

I'm 50/50 with any pocket pair (barring AA, KK, at which by just calling I lose the least) and am way ahead of pretty much everything else.

If he bricks, and he'll keep firing, then raising serves no purpose as he'll just fold and I gain nothing. If I'm behind, I'm saving bets by not raising and opening myself to being re raised.

Preflop, if I cap he can narrow my range down to big PPs and AK, and that makes his hand a lot easier to play against me on the flop. By sacrificing .5bb preflop I believe I made an extra .5bb postflop.

This is win most/lose least, IMO.
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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 04:38 AM #8 (permalink)  
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If the turn had been an Ace, I would have raised. DUCY?

In hindsight, no I dont think I would have. I think I would have played it the same, popping the river.

nevermind.
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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 04:50 AM #9 (permalink)  
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Fanatic pointed out on vent that if he has something like KQ, KJ, or a decent pocket pair, he probably would have paid another bet on the turn.

He has a valid point.
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midas06
Old 05-11-2006, 04:50 AM #10 (permalink)  
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I need to start playing more passive in places. I've been trying it, but I'm not picking my spots well I don't think
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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 04:53 AM #11 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by midas06
I need to start playing more passive in places. I've been trying it, but I'm not picking my spots well I don't think
Its a very fine line, and I'm having trouble with it too. Hence the postings.



I think a case can be made here for raising the turn. If he has a KQ, KJ, or ppair, as fanatic pointed out -- he'll probably pay me off just to make me show it.

If, however, I had capped the flop, it would be a fairly easy fold for him. Or it should be. Its hard to quantify the shitty play of our opponents at times.
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Old 05-11-2006, 05:21 AM #12 (permalink)  
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It feels really wierd, and should set a warning bell off to my opponents when I use it too, since I'm easily the most aggressive player at the table when I'm playing on most tables.

Should I still use it?
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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 05:41 AM #13 (permalink)  
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"It depends" If your table image says that youre the most aggro guy at the table, then to suddenly show up as passive is probably a warning bell for someone who is paying attention.

Note that disclaimer.
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StinkyBeaver
Old 05-11-2006, 06:31 AM #14 (permalink)  
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You my sir just found a magic gold egg.

WE DO LIKE PERIOD (I do anyways)

Look how big these guys mistakes are in terms of BB you make big money on this.

the board is so dry that you don't want anybody to fold as they are either way ahead or have 2 or 3 outs to improve.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-11-2006, 06:54 AM #15 (permalink)  
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 Everything but the flop call i like. Steal my plays again punk...


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Ltrain
Old 05-11-2006, 01:53 PM #16 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think a case can be made here for raising the turn. If he has a KQ, KJ, or ppair, as fanatic pointed out -- he'll probably pay me off just to make me show it.
.
If he has KQ or KJ, he will bet the river, and you can then raise the river for the same result. If he has a pocket pair, yes, you would likely miss one bet; I would play it like you did though.
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chardrian
Old 05-11-2006, 02:23 PM #17 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elipsesjeff
Everything but the flop call i like.
It's the flop call that sets up the whole hand tho.

If he raises the flop, he's probably going to get a check/fold on the turn from his opp.

I don't mind raising the turn because it will give you the extra bet often enough that it is probably worth scaring off a possible bet on the river.

I don't mind the call on the turn tho either because you are either going to get that raise in on the river, or you will likely get a check/call from an opp who thinks you are just trying to steal or is willing to pay one BB just to see how you play since he is "so invested" anyways.
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-11-2006, 03:51 PM #18 (permalink)  
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 i meant to say preflop call, not flop call. sry.


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euphoricism
Old 05-11-2006, 03:59 PM #19 (permalink)  
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but its the preflop call that sets up the whole hand too. If I had capped, he woulda check called flop, probably check folded turn.
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Miffed22001
Old 05-11-2006, 04:05 PM #20 (permalink)  
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 miff raises the turn but likes the rest.
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Old 05-11-2006, 04:37 PM #21 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ltrain
Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism

I think a case can be made here for raising the turn. If he has a KQ, KJ, or pair, as fanatic pointed out -- he'll probably pay me off just to make me show it.
.
If he has KQ or KJ, he will bet the river, and you can then raise the river for the same result. If he has a pocket pair, yes, you would likely miss one bet; I would play it like you did though.
meah, well lets think of this, lets say it's me in that spot instead of some random Tagg... i 3bet, bet the flop typical he calls bet the turn he calls, on the river... if i have KQ or KJ, i have to ask myself what is he calling down with? so i'd bet figure i was good and when i get raised i'm like WTF!!!

as soon as i get raised on the river my KQ or KJ shrinks big time in size... i know longer fell good about my hand at all... i feel this he might have hit a set and slow played it, might have 2 pair might have the same hand as me might have AK getting tricky... I highly doubt he makes this raise here as a pure bluff so i have to know he has a piece but what is it and can i bet that piece... which it takes a hell of a read to throw away a hand like KJ or KQ on the river there, but i'd have to venture to say Eupho would have me beat here a lot more times then 9.5:1 i'm thinking i’m only getting 15:1 that i win here, but against me it's different because he might run that line as a bluff because he knows how i play and could lay down a hand if i thought i was behind...

but your right i think he gets a call there 98% of the time when the guy holds KJ or KQ, the thing is though you miss out the times he 3 bets KQ thinking you are just trying to take the pot on the turn from him...

I have seen stealers 3 bet then wait for the turn to make another play at the pot... so if he knows this line and 3 bets you miss out 2 or 3bb IMO... of course you end up losing more if he hit a set but he would play that more argo anyways...
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elipsesjeff
Old 05-11-2006, 04:40 PM #22 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
but its the preflop call that sets up the whole hand too. If I had capped, he woulda check called flop, probably check folded turn.
What about the 2/3 of a time you don't hit your ace or king? What about the 1/6 time you both hit your ace and you can beat him over the head with your kicker?

Since you can't see in the future, especially if this is a TAG, you should extract the value out of him as soon as possible. It just so happened that it worked out this time and you flopped your king.

Preflop aside, you know I like the postflop play, I've been advocating it for months now I'm glad you finally listened. Now, I'll take my % cut of your winnings, transfer it to me via stars. kthx


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chardrian
Old 05-11-2006, 04:41 PM #23 (permalink)  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by euphoricism
but its the preflop call that sets up the whole hand too. If I had capped, he woulda check called flop, probably check folded turn.
I agree with this too.

I totally agree that a preflop cap with AK is always +EV, but I don't mind just calling a 3 bet with it preflop exactly for a hand like this.

No one folds preflop after raising and getting 3-bet. So a call is standard and doesnt tip off that you have such a good hand. A cap preflop from a standard opp = JJ+, AK to me (the range can vary a bit depending on the opp).

The 3 bettor is no longer the aggressor if the hand gets capped preflop, and you want him to stay aggressive in this hand.

BTW - I don't mind the cap preflop at all. But then I think the whole line changes.
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ChezJ
Old 05-12-2006, 01:24 PM #24 (permalink)  
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 i think the key to this hand is the fact that you had the A so even if another diamond fell on the turn, you would have a redraw to the nut flush. without a strong diamond, i'm not so sure i'm slowplaying the flop. but in this case, well played.

ChezJ
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