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Punishing the blind stealer - does this play make sense?

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ArcticKnight

05-21-2005, 05:52 PM Post subject: Punishing the blind stealer - does this play make sense?

#1 (permalink)

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Posts: 416

4 handed.
Whether these are steals or just loose play, the result for me was the same: I lost my blinds to this guy 4 of 5 times early in the session, as I had nothing to play back with. The other two were giving UTG too much respect for his 1st to act raises, so it came to me lots it seemed.

I was detemined that I was going to use an approach that I had used before, and was just wondering what folks thought.

Ultimate Bet 10/20 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with A

, K

.
UTG raises, 2 folds, Hero calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 8

, 4

, A

(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero raises, UTG 3-bets, Hero caps, UTG calls.

Turn: (6.25 BB) 2

(2 players)
Hero bets, UTG folds.

Final Pot: 7.25 BB

Results in white below:
No showdown. Hero wins 7.25 BB.

I showed my AK

1. He played lots of weak aces, so this was a good opportunity to soft-peddle my AK
2. There was nobody else in the pot, so he's isolated
3. His bet postflop after I check is pretty much a given, so it's perfect for the C/R
4. If I miss the flop I can slow down or lay down, and I've hidden my good holdings and can try again later. (I hate it when I'm am trying to play back at a blind stealer, and I 3bet, and I miss my flop and have to lay down or lose in a calldown - makes me look even more ripe for pickings)
5. This play may reduce his feewheleling on my blinds
6. He will have no idea what I call in the BB with in the future, or what I Re-reaise with (Ps. I go back to standard play after this)
7. He and the table can read this as tricky, not knowing that I won't do this again for the rest of the session.
8. This play works better out of position, I think.

I wouldn't recommend the above with a big pair or with anyone else in the pot, but I think it has value when you are playing against guys who play weak aces, and you can get them heads up. Every other time this hand is a 3bet or cap (if possible)

Any thoughts folks

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

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TylerK

05-21-2005, 05:58 PM

#2 (permalink)

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Join Date: Oct 2004

Location: PEANUT BUTTER JELLY TIME

Posts: 1,791

Looks goot. Do you think you could have extracted more bets on later streets by just calling his flop 3-bet?

TylerK: its just gambling if i want to worry about money i'll go to work lol

ArcticKnight

05-21-2005, 08:18 PM

#3 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by TylerK

Looks goot. Do you think you could have extracted more bets on later streets by just calling his flop 3-bet?

No... I am almost positive I'm ahead of him here, so if he wants to play from behind I need to make it as expensive as possible. It he catches, I pay him off.
My guess is that he missed the flop entirely, and didn't want to fold my cap bet so he folded the turn bet. I think he paid one SB to try and save a liitle table image, but it's clear he missed...He's have called me down here even with a weak ace.

Also, I think it's crucial that players think that you C/R ONLY with the goods. It helps push people off pots later when you do try and steal a couple of pots with the C/R (especially on scare cards)

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

05-21-2005, 11:37 PM

#4 (permalink)

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Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck

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Fnord is an unknown quantity at this point

3-bet pre-flop, particularly with a hand as weak as AK. You're giving up too much to the stealer if there isn't a threat of you 3-bettting strong hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

05-22-2005, 02:45 AM

#5 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

3-bet pre-flop, particularly with a hand as weak as AK. You're giving up too much to the stealer if there isn't a threat of you 3-bettting strong hands.

The post wasn't about how to play AK, for crying out loud. Of course it's a 3 bet. Did you even read the post...

I'm not multi-tabling like you Fnord.., I'm playing where reads are essential, and making it hard for others to read you as pedictable is critical. I was trying to send a message, mis-information, and extract maximum value. I'm playing 200 hands with the same 4, 5 or 6 players!!!

I wanted to highlight my thinking to see if anyone had any comments about why any particlular line of my rationale was flawed.

If there are parts of this strategy that don't seem to make sense, then please comment.

But three-bet the flop is no help... it's the standard play!!

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

05-22-2005, 02:50 AM

#6 (permalink)

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Posts: 19,333

I'm not being an ABC nit, your overall approach to defeating this guy's over-aggressive stealing is seriously flawed.

It's more important for those same 4, 5 or 6 players to understand that they risk a 3-bet by trying to steal your blinds with weak hands than it is to get an extra bet out of this hand (vs playing against unknowns.) Otherwise, your failure to 3-bet makes it profitable to steal with a wide range beause you're giving a free flop too often when you're not folding. HEFAP talks about this, but the hand they use is TT. AK has less of an edge than TT, so it is even more important to 3-bet here. Another great reason to 3-bet is that the bigger pot gives you more room to take your hand to showdown unimproved.

Quote:

Originally Posted by HEFAP p189

For example, suppose you are in the big blind, you hold T

and the player on the button raises and it is just the two of you. If this was the only hand that you were concerned with, you might be better off calling and trapping your opponent. But poker is a game of many hands, and you need to prevent your adversary from raising with almost anything in this spot. He needs to know that he's in jeopardy of a reraise. Thus you frequiently reraise for the sake of future hands, not the hand that you are holding.

IMHO, you need a hand like QQ or better to smooth call.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Fnord

05-22-2005, 03:19 AM

#7 (permalink)

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I've been using a variant of the Peter_rus approach to dealing with blind theft.

Call with any hand that's not hopeless (Peter will call with any 2 if the rake is low enough.)

Check/raise any piece of the flop. A gutshot + overcard is good enough. This includes any single hole card flush draw.

Peel one to draw to middle pair. Ignore the top card unless it's an Ace and the stealer is kinda tight.

Take any pair to showdown.

Probably too simplistic for 4 handed, but for 5+ handed it gets the job done and sends a clear message to your opponents that going after your blind could very well get expensive.

At 3/6 full, a flop c/r + turn bet often sends TAgg on a steal home packing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

ArcticKnight

05-22-2005, 04:01 AM

#8 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

I'm not being an ABC nit, your overall approach to defeating this guy's over-aggressive stealing is seriously flawed.

I think we are both aware of the dangers here, but the important point is the "rarity" and "timing" of the action. UTG was new to the table, the others were not. They saw me cap 99, QQ and AKs pre-flop. And as far as UTG, goes, he got his share of 3bets and caps from me after that, and then he started limping instead of raising UTG. Can't say it was because of me, but I can say I had him confused more than once.

AlthoughI agree with the overall sentiment of this not being the way to play AK, ,,,,,, doing this 1 or 2% of the time or so can't be "seriously" flawed, Fnord. I mean let's be real about what a "serious" flaw is.

Also, and most important, (as I said) I would NEVER do this unless the player is islolated and has been playing like it will pay me off to soft-peddle. Look at the situation: If I miss then I save 1 sb by not raising. If I hit, then I gain bets by him not buying my c/r as having the goods. Situationally, it's +EV. But, as I said, after that I'm back to standard play, because I'll take down more pots as the 3 betting aggressor (and because I probably have better holdings), and I will not give up that +EV edge.
You need a good reaons to depart from stadard +EV play, but in those rare cicumstances when you have it, it is wise to use it.

By the way, I think smoothcalling with QQ is dangerous in six handed, as players love big cards (as you know) Ax, Kx,,, etc. The tables are full of limping and coldcalling A6os, K10os, etc, so no way I'm smoothcalling QQ shorthanded. That's scary. AK is better for this, IMO, for you can let it go and nobody is the wiser that you underplayed and folded AK.

QQ may work better at 10handed, though, but the thought scares me shorthanded.

I do appreicate the more detailed feedback, thanks. These exchanges are helpful.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

Fnord

05-22-2005, 11:09 AM

#9 (permalink)

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Hmmm.... then again StellarWind pwns me.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&o=14&fpart=1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EBvge-c2_Xg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w-Xz8aLuD7Y

Phyl

05-22-2005, 03:14 PM Post subject: Re: Punishing the blind stealer - does this play make sense?

#10 (permalink)

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Join Date: May 2005

Location: Texas

Posts: 396

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

5. This play may reduce his feewheleling on my blinds

I think this thinking is flawed, I might be wrong but hear me out.

If he is attempting to steal blinds too much he is making a mistake, if he steals less then he is making less of a mistake.

By encouraging him to steal less he is moving closer towards the optimum blind stealing strategy.

You don't want him to steal less, you want him to steal more and you can take advantage of his weakness.

Make sense?

ArcticKnight

05-22-2005, 10:29 PM Post subject: Re: Punishing the blind stealer - does this play make sense?

#11 (permalink)

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Quote:

Originally Posted by Phyl

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArcticKnight

5. This play may reduce his feewheleling on my blinds

1. It takes a stronger hand to call a raise then it does to make one (I may have better odds to call in the BB for 1 more bet, but that does not change my cards)
2. When I do call in the BB I am also out of position. If I missed the flop and I check I am facing an auto-bet.
3. I can't put the blind stealer on a range of hands if he is too active.

I think it is better for me if he backs off to an optimum blind steal strategy, especially in 6handed, were blind stealing and protection are essential. If he backs off...

1. I can see more pots cheaper
2. I can somwhat narrow his range of hands when he does raise
3. I am forced to protect less often in marginal situations

There is a big difference as you are aware, though, when I am on the button and UTG is too active. This is great, as you have position, and can raise to islolate.

The lack of position is the big struggle with the BB, and the fact that having odds to call one extra bet puts you in play more often with marginal hands, but....out of position.

So, you may be right, but I'd just as soon have him back off than be too aggressive.

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

ArcticKnight

05-22-2005, 10:45 PM

#12 (permalink)

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Join Date: Dec 2004

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Posts: 416

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Hmmm.... then again StellarWind pwns me.

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...5&o=14&fpart=1

Yes, his 2 + 2 posts are good. I have seen a few more that advocate AK as the best hand to set-up for deception. The HU and Short-handed thread on 2 + 2 is quite active...lots of experienced folks with good insight. It's helped me plug some blind play leaks, among other things

Thanks Fnord

Gone golfing ..see ya in the Fall of 2006
PS. What did the snail on the turtle's back say?
Wheeeeeeeee........

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