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Strung
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04-04-2005, 06:20 AM
Post subject: Pumping AK/AQ/KQ when flop is blank
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#1 (permalink)
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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I find whenever I get the above hands, if I have callers and the board is blank I fire a bet trying to get people to fold. I feel that if I am the aggressor with a PFR I should follow through on the flop. Today I had AQ and two callers and the flop comes blank. I fire a bet, one guys calls the other folds. Turn comes blank, I bet he calls. River comes blank, what should I do?
I checked, he bet, I called. Turns out he had JJ. Am I wrong to be so aggressive or should I have bet the river and folded to a re-raise instead?
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G_host
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Straight
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Sweden
Posts: 227
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The way he played I don't think he would have raised you so you lost the same amount anyway. There's nothing wrong with betting the flop with two opponents but they probably havn't hit either.
Position and reads is important when it come to turn and river play HU. To bet you should either know that there is a chance that he folds or that he calls down with junk. Since you raised and he cold-called you or was he in the bb, a middle pp is a possibilty with a thinking player.
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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Position is definately important. If you have position, I'll fire the flop, and usually the turn. Tricker, more aggressive players may c/r the turn leaving you in a bind. But more passive players, such as the one you described here, you can bet the turn to get a fold. However, after 2 attempts, and an empty river, check it down. Only a better hand should be calling. Sometimes, a lesser hand would have called, but you're going to lose more over the long run to better hands in this position.
If you dont have position, and a tricker player is behind you, betting the turn into him after he called the flop can be awkward as well. You may get raised and forced to release. If he checks the river, his play actually gets him to a showdown the same way if he calls your turn and river bets, but he gets that folding equity from his turn raise. If the player is particularly aggressive, you may check/call the turn to get to the river as cheap as possible for sure.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Room
Position is definately important.
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I honestly think this situation costs me a significant amount of money. When I'm out of position, I often find myself firing into 1-2 players on a whiffed flop praying for at least one fold and a friendly street to follow.
For what it's worth...for me, it depends on the player, what I know about him, and what I've done recently at the table. This is tougher to do quickly when multi-tabling, but I attempt to check PT for my VPIP at that table to determine if it looks like I've been playing a lot of hands, and bet/check based on that. I'm not betting out into more than 1 player if I've been in a lot of pots, because my action is discredited. Against known, weak players (no more than 2), I will often do a "tricky" check on the turn, if I get no help but a big card comes. If they bet on a big card, I often fold as weaker players usually bet what they have, and if I've shown down strength, they're usually scared to go at it.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Strung
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 209
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I'm also wondering about pot equity here and a flop/turn bet. With two overcards here I have 6 outs so against 2 players am I correct that I have pot equity edge to fire a bet? Does this change on the turn if 1 guy folds and now the bets are doubled? If they both call, do I still have my edge to fire another bet?
Here is what I'm thinking:
Out of position:
Flop: fire a bet
-if I am raised and re-raised fold
-if I am raised, call and check/fold a blank turn
With position:
Flop: fire a bet
-if I am raised and re-raised fold
-if I am raised, call and take a free card* or fold to a bet on turn
*Usually if I am checked to I take this as he hasn't hit as well/weakness so maybe fire a bet 50% of the time.
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Chicago_Kid
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Full House
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: People let me tell you about my best friends...
Posts: 1,132
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Quote:
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Originally Posted by Strung
-if I am raised, call and take a free card* or fold to a bet on turn
*Usually if I am checked to I take this as he hasn't hit as well/weakness so maybe fire a bet 50% of the time.
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Does this happen often? Maybe if your opponent is betting on the come with a flush draw, and missed on the turn. Either way, I'm checking this. With only one card to come, I'm not seeing how he's not going to call your turn bet on his draw after raising the flop. You're throwing money at his odds-justified draw, or you are behind with 6 or fewer outs.
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"Been gone so long, forgot how to poker"
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Sometimes I just check/call when I miss out of postion. You need to consider how many players saw the flop, the flop texture and table texture.
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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Played AK twice tonight, both times with the button post-flop. Never bet post-flop either time and took it to the river twice (folding to a river bet.) Consider the bets I saved playing against a field of loose/passives with a couple horrible calling stations thrown in...
Just pointing out that TAgg gets the money in really good games, but it's not optimal.
On the other hand, after a table change I got ATo isolated against a truely clueless guy. Bet the flop + turn unimproved. I expected to be beat by bottom pair, but he mucked it on the turn saying "I don't like this game." 
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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Reads and table image are also important I'd say. If you are pretty sure people will put you on AK/AQ and try to steal on a ragged flop you can play it diffirently.
Last night (good read that 1 or 2 guys would put me on AK/AQ and try to steal on a ragged flop with nothing or small pair) I raise with AK first in get a couple of callers. Flop is ragged (no draws) I bet one raises the other folds, so I re-raise and fire again on the turn (unimproved). He folds.
But that really needs a really good read on him. I've even had bet/raise/3-bet and cap the flop then bet the river and he folds. But that was like playing with the same guy for 4 hours at the same table (6 max).
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Fnord
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: I'll Do You Like A Truck
Posts: 19,333
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No one was folding anything on the flop nor any pair on any street for one bet. Certainly if the table texture was different I would bet out for all sorts of reasons.
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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Of course the aforementioned examples are rare (only happened to me 3-4 times) but the table was such that we were playing eachother not the cards.
It was like:
me: bet the ragged flop
him: you have AK, you hit nothing (raise)
me: I have a pocket pair (or "you are trying to steal, my AK still better than your JQ" (3-bet)
turn:
me: I said I HAVE PP (bet)
him: ok I believe you (fold)
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Room
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Straight
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 197
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In reference to 3 betting the flop with a missed AK or AQ. As many of you mentioned, it looks like you are firing into a field of players behind you, and one will raise behind, then you will 3bet into them. Not sure if this is the best play here without an amazing read. This player has to be tight, passive, and willing to laydown. I think this play will only be getting AK, AQ, AJ, or small PP to fold. What happens, when youre out of position (as above) and you fire the turn and he calls? Are you betting the river? What if he raises the turn? I'm not saying you can't 3 bet out of position here, I just think you need a great read and the right kind of player behind you.
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m3laNcholy
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Straight
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 232
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Hey dont get me wrong the above situation is what you said exactly. You have to have an AMAZING read. Only done in a couple of times as mentioned above and I am only mentioning it as extreme and even funny case cause I was like 90% sure that he put on AK and tried to steal + I was getting credit for my agression.
You know I bet the ragged flop in which he hit sth (or nothing) and he raises to see where he stands. 3-bet back to him he usually gave me credit for it and folded the turn unimproved (or with a scare card).
I never do stuff like that without that good of a read (even then it can backfire a lot) generally if I miss I will bet against a couple of opponents if they are somewhat tight and the board is uncoordinated and also bet the turn if I feel they did not hit.B ut if its more like 3-4 loose players (like its usually at PP $1-2 where I spend my time) I dont even bother. I will bet only with position and then (assuming unimproved) I will take the free card and see from there.
AKs and AKo were 2 of my most -$$ hands in last week sessions (sth like 4K hands) (although I rarely hit sth when I got them and had them cracked by Ax hitting 2 pair...) and while I was playing them back on poker tracker I was telling my self "why the !@#$ are you betting into 4 opponents like that, you know they are not gonna fold".
4K hands is nothing ofcourse I know that AK will be highly profitable in the long run. I am pretty sure however that its a really difficult hand to play right and am trying to fix that leak.
Any thoughts welcome :P
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